*** MK10 - Show & Shine Rules - A little debate... ***

[Stodgy]

We had a chat about this over the weekend and wanted to know your thoughts.

Do you feel that Winners (1st, 2nd & 3rd) of MK Show & Shine should be allowed to win in future S&S comps?

This question seems to polarise people. I see it a few ways:

YES
If they are the best and still the best next time around then they deserve to win regardless.

NO
They have won before, give someone else a chance.

YES, WITH CHANGES
The best just got better with some significant changes (not just brake cables!)


What do you think?

Vote and comments please.

[beard1973]

I know we are just a humble Burner show.. but the ruling we adopted at the Burner Bash that all WINNERS are retired from the Show & Shine.

'Runners Up' are then allowed to battle it out once more and aim for the big prize. 

[thecrooch]

are you saying the winners or the bikes?

not that it matters but there did seem a lot of mods winning the prizes.....  pls. dont shoot me down, only an observation.

personally I dont think it matters too much as long as the same bikes dont win again... (but then again if PK Radman and Quadpete didnt bring their collections the show would be half the size.... not that they won anything)

thanks for the cuddle on saturday stodgey made my day....  

oh and stick me down for the SE Big Ripper we spoke about.....

 

[DIRTBIKER250F]

I think they should, if a bar is raised it should be able to defend its title. Its a competition, cant think of any other competition were the winner cant come back to defend a title. Surerly this is how builds are made to even better levels

[diesel]

YES, WITH CHANGES

[Waxintaxin]

hmm

i guess I am split on this one

is it a little condesending to other competitors to award a first for all the hard work to bikes who havent gone against last years winner ,but can see that if a bike has won is it fair to win again,I guess life is like that and i for one maybe dont want to go all special needs ,to give people a chance by removing from the show lAST YEARS WINNER
maybe the reason why the standard has risen every year is because you go against the best bikes in the uk
however expanding categorys and awarding comendations as we did this year ,is more inclusive and spreads the love

good idea to air ir and see what the opinion is

[Stodgy]

are you saying the winners or the bikes?

not that it matters but there did seem a lot of mods winning the prizes.....  pls. dont shoot me down, only an observation.

The individual bikes, not the builder.

Hmmmm, mods winning the prizes. The owner doesn't come in to it, the bikes with the correct look and correct era parts win the prizes - if they happen to be the owned by Mods then that's because they built the best bikes. There is no favouritism in judging - I think the bikes prove that.

[thecrooch]

okey dokey - point well made. as i said only an observation...

[sawzall]

i think you should be allowed to enter again even if you won the previous year,as for the bikes that took top honours this year stidds-monkey biscuits etc
they were incredible builds and should be able to defend there titles,the standard keeps getting better  and these builds will keep us all on out toes

[20to26]

As a newbie to S&S I think that the Mid School category was too broad this year. I know it was said that it was to fall inline with the USA but I still can't see how bikes from 87/88/89 can go up against the popular S&M & Standard Bykes dominating the "Mid School" Category all the way up to 1999ish. Perhaps a clearer reason would assist me in understanding - there's got to be more to it than "because the yanks do it" surely, then again I may be wrong... to me late 80's bikes are sooo different to 90's bikes and aren't indicative of Mid School at all.

The Judges have a heck of a job - there are so many awesome bikes and it's difficult to see why one would win over another. If it's not too much trouble perhaps the judges could explain to us newbies to S&S what they're looking for. For example - would a class winning bike have to be completely NOS, and rechromed/repainted etc. (I don't envy those judges for sure!)

If previous winning bikes were to be excluded how about a special "Hall of Fame" area for previous winners? That would still give the owners some huge kudos for their efforts in previous years and the rest of us something to aspire to. Those bikes could still be in contention for Mods Awards or Best of Show perhaps but not class awards.

Personally I don't enter to win cos I love my bikes anyhow and just want to give them some sunshine & fresh air at least, but I do want to know what I can do to improve my builds if I wanted to contend even with one bike entered. BOTM is a good guide and so is feedback on RAD but we don't get to choose the winners at MK. Getting a "Highly Commended" this year was PURE STOKE - it also demonstrated to me that the S&S wasn't an "Inner Circle" thing won by the same bods every year but that everybody had a shot at getting some recognition - which lets face it - secretly everybody enjoys.

Whatever happens I'll still lineup a few bikes next year regardless of the rules as I'm sure others will.
I also plan to bring along a very rusty old Grifter  

[mark 2]

I've won 3 trophy's in the last 2 years (thank you )  and personally I wouldn't bring the same bikes to enter anyway, I put them to bed after that and move on.   But that's because I just  grab a few each year and tend to theme what I bring. This year unrestored bikes that have had no work.  I wolud bring the lot though if I was a bit more organised so I just travel light. But if you bring the whole displays worth year by year with some previous winning bikes showing up again it's not cut n dried it'll win. Trends change, judges change. Some sneaky bugger may show up with a secret show queen, you never know what is going to happen.   And if it has won, it's won for a reason, that it still stood out as the best.  There's no point penalising a bike and something else winning by default. 

[Stodgy]

Fair point about the Mid-School years.

I must say I agree...to me the categories should be

Vintage - 70s
Old School - 80 - 89
Mid School - 90 - 99
New School - 00 - 09

But we have fallen in line with the US after cristism in previous years that we shouldn't include AD990 mount bikes in the Mid-School section and that we shouldn't include bike with a 1 1/8" headset in Mid-School.


With regards to what we are looking for - it's quite simple; First and foremost they have to be Era correct, then they have to look 'right'. This doesn't mean the most expensive parts, but the right parts for that bike.

The biggest thing that lets down builds are grips and tyres (lots of Ame grips with the new logo and rainbow comp III's), we all know why these options are choosen, but when it comes down to the best of the best, they are the things that define a winner.

About the only thing we turn a blinkered eye to is repro-padsets, stickers and paint/chrome. However if there are two near identical builds but one has an original padset, then it would win over the other.

Judging a S&S is so difficult and it's important to be objective and not just subjective. For example, I'm not keen on Nomura's, but a Nomura took top honors this year because it was right.

Anyhow, for 2010 we will produce a complete list of what we are looking for.

We have avoided this in the past so as not to put people off entering their bikes - we want them all there as they have all had masses of time and effort put in to them, and it's great to see and reward everyones  builds. That's why we've introduced the 'Highly Commended' awards.

We also believe that it's not about the winning, but being part of the biggest display of OS bikes this side of the Atlantic. We should all be proud that we are keeping the history of BMX alive.

We are always open to ideas and suggestions - so please keep them coming.

[beard1973]

Judging the bikes must be a nightmare when there are so many bikes covering such a variety of manufacturers.

You need to be an 'expert' in EVERY era / manufacturer and model to get things perfect.

For example... 2 Chrome Aero Pro's lined up 2 bikes apart... one was 99.9% factory spec (and the only Aero Pro in existence with a set of NOS correct colour decals) the other had a painted Stem, wrongly coloured decals and the wrong seat clamp... guess which one was awarded a 'Highly Recommended' medal...   

Impossible job and not something I would want to do!!! so well done guys.. 

On the whole I think the judges got things spot on... and its all about opinions 

[BUBBS]

I entered the show and shine for the first time this year knowing that my bike was not quite how it should be with the wrong crank in it but still got a trophy will get the correct crank when one comes up, if you are not too careful people will not enter their bikes because they no that they have not got the right parts on them I still like to see all the builds because people build bikes how they would have had them back in the day, I like the idea of the hall of fame whats the point of changing bikes that were spot on to start with, you would just be changing them so you could enter them again and if you were not prepared to do that they would not get bought along next time

[Bob_Acid]

Crooch, you can be one of the judges next year then.

[crazycraig]

I dont think that new school should be in it at all 

[thecrooch]

Happy to  

I did say it was only an observation.  Sorry not a boat rocker.

Personally i'd be happy to help in anyway.  You only have to ask.

And if there was a New School Section - I'd Enter One.

[Waxintaxin]

It very hard to be involved ,with bikes in the contest , Its the reason i stepped away from the show and shine panel so to speak a couple of years ago

i used to judge ,and couldnt enter a bike and feel happy that people would yell fix

and its so hard to judge so many bikes in a few hours that there will always be people who dont agree with the judges desisions
We dont want to exclude anyone ,as its not all about an elitest attitude but an inclusive display of the history of BMX, plus at a free event we rely on this fee to show support for the event sad but true i am afraid

The rules have developed from the early show and shines at events alan used to organise , change the judges to get a different perspective and try to be fair and honest. Although we started with a points system but felt it was too strict and regimented and would exclude entries   

You look for era correct parts , rare and hard to find parts,something different and the overall feel for the bike has to be right ( in the opinion of the judges that year) plus work or the stories behind the bike itself and a lot of people would not know enough as beard has pointed out, so the judges have to have knowledge and expirience to be able to do the job

I and all of you strive for the bike that you build to be nice , and be recognised as such,so I am sure we can develop and improve the s&s to reflect the building S&S variety

[pkradman]

its all gettin a lil confusing ... for me personaly im happy for the winning bike to be excluded the following year that way it will give others the chance to shine .. the title holder will still be able to defend his crown but will have to breath new fire...

[southern andy]

It was my first year for show and shine, my mid school i pulled out of the show to race on, i don't think the judging had been done by then.

My Old school Kuwi Nova was never going to win as it didn't shine but it was a complete survivor right down to the stickers and chrome, the bike was basically built up of standard stuff as per bike. I bought it to show people rather than wow them.

I'd be happy if people bought the same bikes again and entered them cause i know i will.

[Bob_Acid]

That's the right idea Andy. i bring the same 3 bikes every year, i chop them about a bit, but i'm not expecting to win anything for me it's more about them being there and me paying my tenner to help fund the event.

That said though some people have spent a lot of time and money doing their bikes and if there seemed to be a lot of bikes that were voted for that were rad team bikes then that's because they brought what was in the judges opinions the best bikes.

[oberonspacefruit]

Gotta say its a really hard task judging, and I knew that no matter what was picked, someone would take issue with it.

Dont think that it was done casually, it took hours, with loads of re thinking, crossing outs, and general worry.

And no matter which bike was eventually picked, its was always going to be just an opinion.

[etriedes]

I think most people are just after a general guide of what the judges are looking for , and alot of people just get the pleasure of showing there bikes and getting feedback from the others at the show .. To win a trophy is nice but i enjoy hearing what people have to say about my builds , good or bad ...

I do like the idea of a hall/tent of fame for previous winners ..... and breath new life into it to re-enter

Roll on MK 10 ....

[brass monkey!]

anyone wanna buy a Nomura !   

[oberonspacefruit]

.

You need to be an 'expert' in EVERY era / manufacturer and model to get things perfect.

For example... 2 Chrome Aero Pro's lined up 2 bikes apart... one was 99.9% factory spec (and the only Aero Pro in existence with a set of NOS correct colour decals) the other had a painted Stem, wrongly coloured decals and the wrong seat clamp... guess which one was awarded a 'Highly Recommended' medal... 

 
I know you arent having a go, but just to answer, both the "Mods Choice" and the commendation medals, were not all about being era correct, that was left to the main show winners. The commendations were just an extra acknowledgement of either a paricular nice feature, idea, or just a generally good looking bike in our humble opinions.