What is a mongoose 2 / there's no such thing as a motomag model....let's discuss

[bobafett]

I got a PM from Paul (snav69) asking about what is the difference between a mongoose 2 model and a motomag model as he has an '81 goose and i thought it was worth discussing.............

here is pauls frame - http://www.radbmx.co.uk/forum/index.php'topic=85771.0

These are my personal views so feel free to chip in 

If you go by decal names then bmxproducts.com has the black background decals as mongoose 2 and the gold background as mongoose / motomag which would put Paul's as a mongoose 2 - As a side issue on the "motomag" topic personally i believe that name to be something created by collectors today OR owners BITD based on the motomag decal that was often on the downtube - the model was never called the "motmag" by mongoose as far as I am concerned - it was always just a "mongoose" I'm also fairly sure that the motomag decal came with the frame but not applied - it was the choice of the owner to apply it or not and many survivors can be found without the motomag decal and no sticky residue indicating that it ever was - anyways I digress 
Back on the mongoose 2 trail............... right so according to bmxproducts.com - black background decal = mongoose 2 - it is also my belief that this decal change may coincide with the movement of the frame decal from the top tube to the down tube for standard mongoose models (supergoose / team etc. had already moved to the downtube prior to this) AND also possibly coincides with the change of serial number style ('81 mongoose survivor owners could help me confirm this with serial number / decal combination info  ) i.e. I have seen 1981 survivor frames with the "C" prefix serial on the bottom bracket tube and gold background decals but the frames without the "C" prefix serial nos. having the black background decals.

1981 was a busy year for mongoose changes  and that's before we even start talking about the dropouts changing that year too 

Anyways........ again............. back to the question(s) in hand 

Decals aside, the frames are identical so as such there is no such thing as a mongoose II frame 

....but just to throw a spanner in the works the term "mongoose 2" OR "mongoose II" as it happens first appears in the mongoose 1979/80 catalogue with the older decals and the only difference to a standard "mongoose" (or "motomag" to some) would be the parts on it - freewheel instead of coaster - alloy wheels - full caliper brake set front and rear 

Here is a piccy from the 79/80 catalogue :



And then in 81 the spec changes again as there is only a rear brake and there is agold stem etc. 

Here is a piccy from the 81 catalogue (as you can see it has the earlier decal as this is how they started out at the begining of 1981 and as you can see it is on the top tube, also there is a motomag decal supporting the "no such thing as a motomag model" theory) :




So I guess if the question is "What is a mongoose II" the answer is - a standard mongoose with alloy wheels no coaster and caliper brake(s)
but if the question is "What is a mongoose 2" - the answer is a standard mongoose with 2nd generation decals.

So I guess I've either cleared this up now or totally confused everyone and made the situation worse 

Please chip in with any thoughts......................................

[Bob_Acid]

To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. 

[kdw712]

To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. 

see Bob i would call that a mark or type 2 / 2nd gen
then the mark 3 has no gussets at all


with the mongoose 2 as per the catalogue
would / could that be tied to the lose of the coaster brake tab ?
so very early 76 etc no brake bridge just the tab
then had both
then just the brake bridge  ?



and i think your right John the term mongoose motomag has become a generic term
rather like hoover describing any vacuum cleaner

[snav69]

Are you saying there is no model called a Motomag 
I have just had a look through a catalogue and there is a model called the motomag in it 
Confusing stuff 

[bobafett]

Are you saying there is no model called a Motomag 
I have just had a look through a catalogue and there is a model called the motomag in it 
Confusing stuff 

I guess what I'm saying with reference to "motomag" Paul is that many people list a mongoose frame for sale as a "mongoose motomag F&F" but there is no such thing - the bike you refer to in the 81 catalogue has coaster motomag wheels and as a full bike it is labelled as a "motomag" in that catalogue but above it is a "freemag" with freewheel motomag wheels but it's not a "mongoose freemag F&F" if you catch my drift - also this is the only catalogue that gives each build style of the same frame different little monikers - in all the earlier catalogues it's just a "mongoose" regardless of motomags or spokes 

I think that makes sense - well it did to me when I typed it 

[snav69]

I get ya' John , Got confused with the bike/frame part, all cleared up now matey 
I'm thick me you know 
 

[boofy44]

Isn't the only difference what wheels came with the bike'the frames are the same,tri-moly
with a high tensile rear end.

[bobafett]

Isn't the only difference what wheels came with the bike'the frames are the same,tri-moly
with a high tensile rear end.

That's pretty much what I was getting at - all be it long windedly 

Although theres also the coaster / caliper brake element to it too 

I guess I'm throwing into the mix a possibility of the existence of a mongoose II AND a mongoose 2

The first being the spec difference the second one being the decal style & postion change + possibly serial number type (and dare I throw it in the mix - dropouts  )

[Redline]

Isn't the only difference what wheels came with the bike'the frames are the same,tri-moly
with a high tensile rear end.

That's pretty much what I was getting at - all be it long windedly 

Although theres also the coaster / caliper brake element to it too 

I guess I'm throwing into the mix a possibility of the existence of a mongoose II AND a mongoose 2

The first being the spec difference the second one being the decal style & postion change + possibly serial number type (and dare I throw it in the mix - dropouts  )

Hey guys,

I've been reading this thread with interest... so I'll just throw a curve at ya!

I don't know jack about Mongoose but as a graphics designer for 26 years I would maybe suggest that whether it's a II or a 2 is just a typographical design change the manufacturers decided to implement into their literature and not necesserly a model change.

.... just a thought 

John

[markyp]

im building a 2 at the mo!!!wasnt the 2 the same frame as the motomag??

[bobafett]

im building a 2 at the mo!!!wasnt the 2 the same frame as the motomag??

motomag ? what motomag ? 

And how are you defining yours as a "2"    or is that "II" 

[markyp]

im building a 2 at the mo!!!wasnt the 2 the same frame as the motomag??

motomag ? what motomag ? 

And how are you defining yours as a "2"    or is that "II" 

by the new decals ive got for it!!

[crazycraig]

To many words and not enough pictures in this thread for me 

[markyp]

To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. 

X2 with bells on!!(thats the answer to above,not a mongoose with bells on!!!)

[MartyC]

To many words and not enough pictures in this thread for me 

Me too 

[Bob_Acid]

So Kev that would make the Mongoose with the step down dropouts about the mk10, there were a few variants wer'n't there.  

[bobafett]

To many words and not enough pictures in this thread for me 

Me too 

Well I started with 2 catalogue shots and a link to paul's (snav69) bike (which has pics) what d'ya want BLOOD 

Anyone with an '81 survivor with ORIGINAL decals get a picture up with the serial number and dropouts 

That'll sort the mongoose "2" thing - as for the mongoose "II" thing what would we post a picture of ? 
I could stick a set of calipers and some alloy wheels in place of the motomags on one of my early frames and call it a "II" if ya like 

[bobafett]

To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. 

X2 with bells on!!

I hear ya but the trouble with mongoose is that changes tended to overlap.

there were 3 main changes in 1981 :

1: the decals style / position
2: the serial number style
3: the dropout style

so does a TRUE mongoose 2 have all 3 of the above ?  and a mongoose have none ?  and anything in between is an overlap frame / decal / dropout mix due to assembly methods in the factory at the time ?

Possible example - frame gets welded up with all mongoose 1 elements - it sits as stock for a while and then gets decal'd up (with the now in use new mongoose 2 decals) assembled and sold - is it a mongoose 2 ?

Example number 2 - frame gets welded up using an earlier style serial stamped bottom bracket but uses the now standard mongoose 2 drop out - is it a mongoose 2 ?

'81 what a year 

[snav69]

My serial is - G136655 

 

[markyp]

My serial is - G136655 

 

cant tell you what mine is cos its at south coast chrome having a beauty treatment!!

[bobafett]

My serial is - G136655 

 

Well there is a scenario straight away on yours Paul - 2nd gen decals 2nd gen serial 1st gen drop outs = mongoose 1.5  

Here's Paul's frame for the picture whores   :



and here is one of mine.......... (excuse the mess in the loft   )

she's a bit rusty as well one day she'll get powdered but the list is long before i get to her

..........dropouts are 2nd gen, decals are second gen and serial No. G142807 is 2nd gen (and same month serial as paul's   )










Are you happy now picture ferrets ?  

[southern andy]

John..... just to confuse things mate 

Whats the difference between your frame above and my frame, they look identical. 

[bobafett]

John..... just to confuse things mate 

Whats the difference between your frame above and my frame, they look identical. 

They are pretty much identical mate - your one is an '83 model which has all of the 3 81 element changes on it mentioned above - dropouts / serial style / decals (once you get the decals that is  ) once these changes happened in 81 this style of frame carried on through to the end of it's life in 83 

The only difference is that your serial is probably on the box section lip rather than the BB and the box section is channel rather than full box in the case of mine 

Ahh yes the box section behind the BB wonder if that changed in 81 as well

All my 82 frames are channel not box and all my 81's are box  maybe that changed late 81 / early 82 

[southern andy]

The only difference is that your serial is probably on the box section lip rather than the BB and the box section is channel rather than full box in the case of mine 

Ahhhhh i can see the difference now, i didn't notice your BB section in your photo.

[bobafett]

The only difference is that your serial is probably on the box section lip rather than the BB and the box section is channel rather than full box in the case of mine 

Ahhhhh i can see the difference now, i didn't notice your BB section in your photo.