Track safety

[Bushwacked]

I'm after a bit of insight into track design as one is being built by a builder who hasn't done one before (Its a long story!!)

I've been told that  the track needs to have the sections between the jumps and berms brought down to ground level for health and safety reasons. Its being said that the edge where the track transfers to ground level is hazard and would cause injuries, even though it slopes down to ground level.

While I really value the guys input so far (as a lot of what has happened wouldn't have happened without his input) this is becoming a bit of a sticking point as I'm being told by the builder it is OK and he's not going to remove it. Plus the council's Health and Safety people are happy with it. 

So, my question is should the level of the track be at ground level or is it OK about 6-12inches above ground level as per this photo below (although its more graduated and lower now?

[se-bmxer]

you'll find a lot of tracks are built slightly above ground level as this will aid drainage of water

[Maccaz]

Im no track designer or health and safety officer but i cant really see why that should hamper you at all, who told you to do that?

I can' really imagine why other than for public health insurance etc, but if the council are ok with it? falling off and rolling down a 6inch slope is not really going to make a difference imo  

[Gary72]

Surely if it has to be level for H&S reasons then all you would end up with is a flat field with no jumps or berms and a track shape marked out in white paint on the floor. Because any kind of pole or tape would be hazardous.
So the 6-12 inches is basically more hazardous than the 3-4 foot jumps

[Bushwacked]

The feel I'm getting for this, and is what I've been thinking, is that the jumps aren't at ground level so it doesn't really make a damn if the flats between them are ground level or 3ft off the ground.

Is this right?

[Moschops]

The only real consideration is that if a rider were to get run off of the track thay actually had a safe journy onto the grass. IE didn't have to bump down a 6" ledge. as long as its graded on the way down its cool.

UCI spec asks for a minnimum of 1m run off areas.

All of the track surface should be higher than the surrounding land to aid dranage.

[Bushwacked]

The only real consideration is that if a rider were to get run off of the track thay actually had a safe journy onto the grass. IE didn't have to bump down a 6" ledge. as long as its graded on the way down its cool.

My thoughts exactly...


Thanks.

[dialledbikes]

I'm being told by the builder it is OK and he's not going to remove it. Plus the council's Health and Safety people are happy with it. 

If the builder and council H&S people are happy with it, who is it that isn't happy with it?

[Bushwacked]

One of the local riders about our age.

SE-Bmxer has kindly offered to come down and do have a look and give me his thoughts. I'm looking forward to see what he thinks.

[GAV_W]

can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side 

[the warden]

can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side 

hi im the warden , speaking on behalf of cheltbmx.com ,my problem with this track is that its raised in the middles so the jumps are small with dirt  you have to allow for shrinkage .
the middle section runs up hill.
removing the dirt  to ground level  will make the track flow  .
i was asked to designed  the track after the first plan failed  ,the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
im 40 have been riding  15 years  plus raced a little in the 80s  ,have dug chissy trails swindon ,seen trails spots all over europe toured the usa woodward 
please check cheltbmx .com ......fair play to bushwacked  but ,the second time round we need to make this work  .....

[kdubbmx]

What about when it rains?

[pickle]

can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side 

hi im the warden , speaking on behalf of cheltbmx.com ,my problem with this track is that its raised in the middles so the jumps are small with dirt  you have to allow for shrinkage .
the middle section runs up hill.
removing the dirt  to ground level  will make the track flow  .
i was asked to designed  the track after the first plan failed  ,the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
im 40 have been riding  15 years  plus raced a little in the 80s  ,have dug chissy trails swindon ,seen trails spots all over europe toured the usa woodward 
please check cheltbmx .com ......fair play to bushwacked  but ,the second time round we need to make this work  .....

if you read your comments on Cheltbmx.com it doesn't come across as so.......

[evamedia]

the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....

I'm confused, why would having the middle still in make any difference?

a set of doubles is pretty similar to a  table top with the middle cut out?

[the warden]

the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....

I'm confused, why would having the middle still in make any difference?

a set of doubles is pretty similar to a  table top with the middle cut out?

[Dex Dexter]

I'm a bit confused too.

Warden - you'll have to use simple language for me as I'm a simple soul.

Can you please spell out, being as prescriptive as possible what the problem is, what the proposed solution is and how it will then be better, both in terms of riding and safety.

Please do not be concerned with patronising me as the more detail the better.

And to be clear - the reason I am asking this is purely to get a better understanding of the situation on site.

Thanks.

Dex

[Moschops]

can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side 

hi im the warden , speaking on behalf of cheltbmx.com ,my problem with this track is that its raised in the middles so the jumps are small with dirt  you have to allow for shrinkage .
the middle section runs up hill.
removing the dirt  to ground level  will make the track flow  .
i was asked to designed  the track after the first plan failed  ,the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
im 40 have been riding  15 years  plus raced a little in the 80s  ,have dug chissy trails swindon ,seen trails spots all over europe toured the usa woodward 
please check cheltbmx .com ......fair play to bushwacked  but ,the second time round we need to make this work  .....

Raised in the middle how? A good camber will aid drainage.
Jumps small? do you mean that the jump height was made from grass level and now thwy are 6 or so inches smaller due to the raised track height.
Dirt shrinkage? If it's packed well and then Type 1 MOT'd it aint going anywhere.
Whats wrong with up hill?

Have you ever built a race track before? it's far more than piles of mud.

[the warden]

sorry for the confusion and my spelling
what i mean  is the ground that is raised in between table,jumps doubles .
the ground has been raised up creating a platform this has been smoothed done on the edges  now ....
but if it was removed it would make the jumps bigger and allow water to drain from the berms as this banking stops  drainage .
taking the  middles out will help sort drainage and allow the track to run down hill .....
and the main thing give this track some flow.
my safety  concerns to start with where that if you where to knock bars and be forced off the raised platform middle you had a good chance of going over the bars
it was kind of like a kerb drop ....
the dirt that is removed can be used for a second large table  ,trick set  make sense to me hope it does to you

[the warden]

the track is  all dirt no type one ..3/4 to dust just dirt on cheltbmx.com bushwacked  has put up some flicker photos check these this may help 

[kdubbmx]

Warden, there are a lot of very experienced track builders on here & we all want to help  you to make your track the best it can be.   

Start from the beginning in simple language & i'm sure the advice you get here will be the best thats available & help you to get it right. 

[the warden]

ok i will try  again in the photo at the begining of this thread ,you will see a fella on a big yellow roller beneath him is the dirt that i want removed  this would make the jumps bigger and when the dirt shrinks down it will be easier to maintain and you would not be riding along a raised  platform .
if all these sections where removed the track would be pumpable and appeal to all riders as it would flow a lot better .
thanks for your support  hope this helps

[Moschops]

Ok I see what you are saying fella.

The raised track height is the right thing to do, I've done enough winter racing to say defernatley stick with that idea. But the track edges must be very gradual not like a ledge.

I also see what you mean about those jumps needing to be a bit bigger. Is there no more soil available? can the site be excavated on the inside of the track to make an even lower point for water to run to? thus giving you more soil to build those jumps up???

As I said previously if the jumps are packed good and hard and then have type1 MOT hardcore rollered over them before limestone is applied they will take years and years to move. Race tracks don't slump if they are built right.

[the warden]

thats kinda my point the jumps are to small , the photo is from the first atemp to build the track .things are a lot bigger now but middles raised still (arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)
there is a photo of track in its present state  on cheltbmx.com  ,you will have to wade through the salt to get it ...lol
the dirt from the middles  can make the jumps bigger and there will be enough left for another large table top.
so we will have a track ,plus two 10 foot tables to  trick ,i asked for the backs of the berms to be made wide ,so they can be used as jump outs ? waiting points to sesh the lines ? if that makes sense ..
i will post photos of track ,as soon as i can so you can see my problems and hopefully understand my dream ,cheers gc the warden

[Bushwacked]

Hi Graham, good to see you on here.   

This hasn't been the easiest project to work on. The odds have been stacked against us with things like the lack of council funds, the rush to do it, the contractors lack of experience and seemingly everyone complaining with only a few yourself included inputting into sorting it out. Personally I now have a lot less hair than I did when I started this. 

Our aim at the moment is to get the jumps shaped and track smooth so that the track flows and you can pump through it nicely - its fun at the moment but hard work.

I'll be totally honest in that I'm not sure how much benefit taking middles out will have as the manual work of shaping still needs to be done - although we could use the dirt from the middles to make the jumps bigger but this would be a big lot of work. This is why we are focusing on getting the jumps shaped as once this is done we'll get an idea of how much impact taking the middle out will have. Especially as we have a whacker plate coming down soon to pack down the alterations we are doing currently.

The council have advised that they don't want anything other than shaping and smoothing done until the track has bedded down, so this blows out the chance of the middles being taken out or changing some jumps to doubles or adding the odd roller here and there which we want to do. Hopefully once we have the shapes right we can focus on phase 2 and how we can develop the jumps and add some more to make it more interesting. It would be great to have yours and others input for this.

Its slowly coming together, I can see the finish soon and it should be good once it is done. Ideally we need people to come and help out to get it sorted otherwise its going to take me and the others a whole lot longer.

James and I did some good work on there yesterday and the step up and 1st berm is looking sweet. He knows his stuff and was good to work on it with him yesterday. 

As those on here know I welcome any advice in getting this to be as good as it can - but there are limitations on what is possible due to certain factors in play (The council being one of them)

[the warden]

well im glad your fooking happy i feel the chelt scene has been robbed  put over a barrel and shaffted ,,,,,
yes we can all ways make do ,you  had no right to push forward your ideas as riding for ayear  gives you no right to take over the running of are scene .
you should have listend to the locals first, then come on this web site, asked your beginers  questions then came back to us for are veiws ,time and time again  i asked for the middles out so the jumps would be bigger  but you no better ,having never dug in your life ?
good luck to baker digging with you  JUDAS......................
WELL THANKS TO ALL FOR POSTING  ,          GC THE WARDEN