unknown bikes

[Stodgy]

UK Bike Co is financed and owned by Avocet (i.e. Coyote, etc).

Darren instead owns the intellectual property - i.e. the rights to the frame designs and to market the heat-treating process in UK and Europe.

Darren is no longer at UK Bike Co, but the latest batch of revised Evolutions, Revolutions, bars and forks are on their way over as I write this. So the company is still continuing and still honoring any warranty issues.
 

How can Avocet continue selling ukbikeco stuff if Darren owns these intellectual property rights?

They own the remaining stock and the stock which is on a boat coming over here. They can't manufacturer any more to the same specifications but can continue to market new products under the same name.

[OrgasmDonor]

yeah man x3

there's always me wallowing in the sadness of the situation i cause myself and wanting
everyone else to feel empty like me and have nothing better to do with my time than infest those who enjoy the sport with negativity.......oops, the truth is out.

 

not trying to infest the sport with negativity but Dibly essentially called myself and Phil liars and I didn't see any of you saying "hang on Dibly, Joe & Phil are sounds guys, what are you saying?", and yes I do bear a grudge, so it's only fair that when he get's found out I get to call him a liar. Which he is.

Eye for an eye and all that. But still I love it that you all want to twist it so Avocet and the Taiwanese suppliers are the bad guys in this and that well known rider who owned the company
is just an innocent victim.

FACT: he claimed it was a rider owned company and that's bollocks he worked for Avocet and got paid by them. If he didn't he couldn't have been fired.
He also kept insisting that only 3 frames ever got returned instead of coming straight out and saying "the first batch is flawed, expect to hear a lot of frames are damaged, but don't worry we're sorting it out."

I'm sure if he can get the funds to start up with his designs, which I'm guessing is the legal complication, adds half a pound in tube thickness and rebrands he'll no doubt be back with a slightly heavier but much stronger frame and I honestly wish him luck in that, he should be applauded for trying, but be honest.

i know squat about bike production etc, and discussion n debate is cool and what gets things movin, i do consider dibly a friend (as i do everone on this forum, as thats how i assume these things should work, in an ideal world i know) even tho i have only met him half a dozen times but each time he has been a sound and genuine and overall nice guy, i've kept out of every one of these threads up until the point of malicousness, speculating witch hunting, as, like i have said, i know nothing about the goings on with bike production, i believe diblys heart was/is in the right place, and for that reason i felt compelled to throw in my 2 penneth sooner rather than later, hopefully to get all the shite out the way early and let the people who know the ins and outs discuss the ins n outs. constructive critism and calculated reflection has more impact i feel.  so on reflection, unfortunately, it was your comment i latched on to even though by no means are you his only detractor, if ya gotta grudge, you gotta grudge, fair enough, but i couldnt resist editing your post


onwards n upwards 

[JT71]

I love the edited quote game, can't beat it. 

hence my 

inwards and outwards!

it's a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng weekend now!

[dialledbikes]

Okay...I've spoken to Darren (Dibly) and he's said it's fine for me to tell. I've tried to keep it in small factual statements below.


To clarify, UK Bike Co is financed and owned by Avocet (i.e. Coyote, etc). So Darren doesn't own the company.

Darren instead owns the intellectual property - i.e. the rights to the frame designs and to market the heat-treating process in UK and Europe. So basically the rights to the product and ran the company solely.

Sales for UK Bike Co frames have been awesome over the past 6 months, outselling every other brand. So in terms of fulfilling his role, Darren has done a good job.

The rumors are right, Darren is no longer at UK Bike Co. He returned from Taiwan to find that, due to a number of factors, there was no job for him any more. There are numerous factors behind this decision; cost-cutting, lack of understanding of the high-end BMX market, and also the fact that Darren was asked not to go to Taiwan by the management of Avocet. So basically he disobeyed a direct order.

Darren has received a lot of flak about 'cracking frames' and 'he doesn't care' etc, but the reason he went to Taiwan was to take control of these issues and ensure that they don't happen again, despite the risk of losing his job. So, he paid the price for this dedication to ensure the product was spot on going forward.

So, there we have it. Darren is no longer at UK Bike Co, but the latest batch of revised Evolutions, Revolutions, bars and forks are on their way over as I write this. So the company is still continuing and still honoring any warranty issues. The product is still good, so do buy one if you've been after one...but who knows where a low-end company like Avocet will take it? If I was buying a frame at the moment my money would go on a more established brand until the water settles.

Any questions I'll do my best to answer, but due to legal reasons it's difficult for Darren to do so.

Read all of this with interest.

Unfortunately for Dibly, I think the brand he has helped to create will end up down the can if it continues to be owned and run by a low end company with no interest in BMX like Avocet.

Is there no way he can negotiate the transfer of the UK Bike Co name to him?  It's not really worth anything to Avocet without the IPR in the designs and even if they use the name on other "non-Dibly" product, no BMX'ers "in the know" will buy it.

So all I can say is I hope Dibly can get his company back from the clutches of Avocet and then redeem himself in the eyes of the BMX world by not getting into bed with people who don't give a toss about BMX again and by re-designing his product/improving quality control to restore its reputation.

I can understand if people felt deceived because a shady company was behind UK Bike Co, but at the end of the day, people should buy product based on whether they like it or not, not because of who owns the company.

[Dark Diggler]

Wise words

[jT Racing]

if he made any money, he should invest it in manufacturing frames in the UK. mass production abroad was a big balls step to try and realise. it's very very hard to hit the ground running when bringing a new brand to the market, i was impressed that he half managed it, but he has felt the sharp end of corporate life and been spat out the other end after being a bit mauled in the middle.
it's a good product, a good idea and has a bright future if he can get manufacturing going and control quality. Balls in his court, but financial backing is almost non existent at the moment so it's gonna be a tough to secure. good luck fella

[dialledbikes]

if he made any money, he should invest it in manufacturing frames in the UK. mass production abroad was a big balls step to try and realise.

Sad to say, but making bike frames in volume in the UK isn't a viable proposition.  Finding someone who can mass produce quality bike frames in the UK is nigh on impossible.  Even if you can find someone, the retail price would be too expensive for most people.

Manufacturing overseas is actually a lot easier and less expensive than manufacturing in the UK.  This doesn't necessarily mean Taiwan.  I've been looking into some US and Canadian options recently.

[20to26]

but at the end of the day, people should buy product based on whether they like it or not, not because of who owns the company.

what you trying to tell us about Dialled, Mike?
 

i'm saddened that young Dibly has got caught up in something like this - from the few times we've spoken and communicated - I like him. I love seeing people make a go of it and as a young man can't be expected to know everything we 'older' folk do - he simply lacked the experience but didn't let that stop him from giving it the best shot & pioneering a new manufacturing technique. His commitment to the brand & his ideas is demonstrated by his willingness to travel to Taiwan to deal with the manufacturing people directly - even tho the people who paid his salary wanted him to put his head in the sand.

Right now I'm sure he feels pretty depressed and embarrassed - I hope he recovers from that soon and gives it another go. He'll be 'older' and wiser from this bad experience. Everybody deserves a second chance.

[Bushwacked]

Whatever has gone on, hats off to Dibly for trying - don't really know the bloke but have a pair of forks from UK bike Co and very pleased with them. Whether or not they were financed by a larger company - he did a good job to get where he got in such a short space of time and I bet he's learnt a hell of a lot during his time on this.

I've got first hand experience of a company you are heavily involved getting into trouble, it's really stressful and knocks your confidence a hell of a lot. So all I can say is good luck to him on his next venture.   

[dialledbikes]

but at the end of the day, people should buy product based on whether they like it or not, not because of who owns the company.

what you trying to tell us about Dialled, Mike?
 

That comment cuts both ways.  I wouldn't want people to buy my stuff just because they like/know me.  I want people to buy/ride it on merit.

However, you can find out who owns Dialled Bikes Ltd by checking the Register of Companies.  But to save you the trouble I can confirm that I own the company lock, stock and fooking lot (and I wouldn't have it any other way cos I hate being told what to do by anybody) 

[jT Racing]

if he made any money, he should invest it in manufacturing frames in the UK. mass production abroad was a big balls step to try and realise.

Sad to say, but making bike frames in volume in the UK isn't a viable proposition.  Finding someone who can mass produce quality bike frames in the UK is nigh on impossible.  Even if you can find someone, the retail price would be too expensive for most people.

Manufacturing overseas is actually a lot easier and less expensive than manufacturing in the UK.  This doesn't necessarily mean Taiwan.  I've been looking into some US and Canadian options recently.

not if you do it in house. polish will work for minimum wage or just above and some of them are very skilled.  Paying a factory to make them means if it costs 50 they want 100+ and that will not work.  £60+ per hour labour and the rest. You need to manufacture yourself to make the most money. Far east production can be far cheaper, but it's better in bulk. Too many companies want to squeeze every last cent out of the retail market with cheap far east manufacturing. The west has been digging a hole for itself for a long time with this short sighted get rich quick attitude.

[DIRTBIKER250F]

if he made any money, he should invest it in manufacturing frames in the UK. mass production abroad was a big balls step to try and realise.

Sad to say, but making bike frames in volume in the UK isn't a viable proposition.  Finding someone who can mass produce quality bike frames in the UK is nigh on impossible.  Even if you can find someone, the retail price would be too expensive for most people.

Manufacturing overseas is actually a lot easier and less expensive than manufacturing in the UK.  This doesn't necessarily mean Taiwan.  I've been looking into some US and Canadian options recently.

not if you do it in house. polish will work for minimum wage or just above and some of them are very skilled.  Paying a factory to make them means if it costs 50 they want 100+ and that will not work.  £60+ per hour labour and the rest. You need to manufacture yourself to make the most money. Far east production can be far cheaper, but it's better in bulk. Too many companies want to squeeze every last cent out of the retail market with cheap far east manufacturing. The west has been digging a hole for itself for a long time with this short sighted get rich quick attitude.

Absolutely Correct !!!

[dan-dare]

A sponsored rider from newcastle was up hartlepool track riding a UK bike today. Spoke with him regarding the recent events. Such a shame when an obviously successful/trackable bike is under this cloud. Very sad.

[hypebikeandboard]

I tend not to go onto these forums too often for the mere reasons that i have read over and over again so much crap about the ukbikeco issues. 
I read the adult comments which i can praise for being constructively critical, and then comes the normal b/s from the 'experts' from the ill informed rumour mongers who have the average brain capacity of pond life.  To the guys who think you have an absolute right to freedom of speech on these forums, you are well mistaken,  and secondly do you ever think for one second to think that your words of wisdom about unknown bike co or any other  new company in the UK for that matter may just have lead to the final nail in the coffin.  If this is the case your slanderous remarks could be construed to be defamation of character.  If Ukbikeco was a multi national and you continued to slate them, you could easily find yourself with a legal writ.

Dibly has done his best in the circumstances.  He did not tell any lies about UK Bike Co, as some of you have said. 

If you wish for it to be explained then I will; it is quite simple for those with a little wisdom.   Dibly owns the IPR to UKBIKECO, and advocet are the sponsors of the project.  In simple terms, advocet assist in the financing, and are the MLH or master licence holder. The relationship broke down between the two sides and that is how it stands. So he is not a liar.

I can say that I do not hear any comments about the other bike brands that came out of the same factory that also have had so much bother. Maybe someone can tell me those brands??? - what have you to say about their situation?  What I can say is I am aware of 2 batches of frames of another top brand from the same factory have had bother also- and I mean a lot of returns but I certainly have not seen the same slanderous comments about them.

Just because you do not like something doesn't mean it is crap. What you guys have done to promote and support this brand within the uk is terrible and nothing to be proud of.  I hope the brand raises its game and a rises above this.

I think this thread has seen its day and should be closed as I believe it is the same people on every bmx forum spreading the same crap about a true British Company trying to do their best for BMXing. A lot of companies have followed them, and I do not hear the same.

And who am I, I guess you are wondering. well I have been involved in the sport and industry from 1979 so I think I should have an idea by now what I am on about!
Close it down.

[Bettyswallocks]

Blimey.... that was a post and a half... 

I dont know much about the ins and outs of how bmx manufacturers run their businesses and i wont pretend to, im not gonna go back through the entire thread quoting previous posts but ive been looking in every now and then

One of the testers of the prototypes stated on this thread that there were problems with the prototypes and the first batch of frames... no sh1t...   



I took that pic, the frame was 3 weeks old... the kid was gutted...  and went on to break its replacement...

Sounds like a lack of development and a rush to get the product released and cash in to me... 

The return rate at my local and other bmx shops have been on average 33%....FACT...  yes on average one third of frames sold have been broken... 

I'll stick with S&M the return rate on the LTF has been 0.5%

I'm sorry to say it but a secret heat treating process developed from samurai swords?... hmmm ... more like wilkinson sword... 

BMX is a close knit community and people talk, i attend skateparks with my son on a regular basis, you all get to know each other, these frames have gone down like a lead balloon i dont see the brand making any sort of come back

Maybe a well developed and tested 4.5lbs frame not made from "bendy wendy" tubing would be a start... oh and dont let the factory weld the downtubes in upsidedown... 

If other brands have had similar return rates.... its been said before.... ... then name em???

Or maybe you dont wanna be faced with a writ?

If what im saying is a load of cr@p.... sue me... 

[username]

I can say that I do not hear any comments about the other bike brands that came out of the same factory that also have had so much bother. Maybe someone can tell me those brands??? - what have you to say about their situation?  What I can say is I am aware of 2 batches of frames of another top brand from the same factory have had bother also- and I mean a lot of returns but I certainly have not seen the same slanderous comments about them.

That other company that you are talking about stopped using the factory as soon as they realized they were having problems with the poor quality. They took actions that made sure no more badly made product would carry their name, that is why their isolated problems did not become such a major issue.

They did not come out with excuses about down tubes being welded topsey-turvy or try and pretend it was a limited problem and regular production was fine.


As to all your comments about free speech, shutting threads, pond-life, true British companies, lies and legal action --> LOL!

[JT71]

hyper123

I am pondlife...but I'd never let you in my pond.

I have a grudge against Dibly, no secret, he made me out to be lying in front of the forum. If you want to paint me as a liar you want be squeaky clean yourself.

Just incase you've forgotten what that was about (or more likely cos you are new here, wonder how you found us), I saw Mark Webb ripping up corby on a WTP Lofi after he was announced as "on the Unknown team" and got accused of making it up and tryign to stir up controversy etc, and told he was riding a UK. Of course he was still riding his old WTP with an Uknown decal. lol. No suprise there, people do that all  the time ride a  different frame with their sponsors decals, in this case just while he waited for his Uk frame, but being the sort of person he is Mr Block couldn't admit that.

Rider owned company?

The down tube issue, welded on the wrong way around? so the heat treated bit was the wrong end, thought they were "full heat treated"

British?

Only 3 have been returned?

The failures were ironed out in the production run?

It's not just the head tube/down tube issue there was a problem witht he chain stays flexing in the prototype and (some of?) the production models had the same issue.

I might well have been libelous here, that's because it was written, not slanderous, though to let you in on a little secret, I have been slanderous about these products too. 
As for the libel it has to be false or derogatory, don't think I have done that about the products.

not heard much about the Premium products frames, but then they took nearly an extra year to get theirs to the market, maybe they made a few changes and ironed out a few kinks after the first one Dibly saw and thought, "oh I'd like to make some of those"

Did he design (lol)  the frames whilst been paid by Avocet? Just curious.

[dialledbikes]

not if you do it in house. polish will work for minimum wage or just above and some of them are very skilled.  Paying a factory to make them means if it costs 50 they want 100+ and that will not work.  £60+ per hour labour and the rest. You need to manufacture yourself to make the most money. Far east production can be far cheaper, but it's better in bulk. Too many companies want to squeeze every last cent out of the retail market with cheap far east manufacturing. The west has been digging a hole for itself for a long time with this short sighted get rich quick attitude.

In-house is definitely the "ideal world" scenario.  But BMX is nowhere near big enough in the UK to justify the set up costs and overheads and the risk.

Only 100% British in-house BMX frames I can think of at present are Curtis.  Why don't more people buy Curtis instead of S&M, Standard, FBM, etc as they can also offer custom/handbuilt frames?  Is it the £500 price tag that puts people off?  I imagine that frames that retail for that price aren't a very attractive export either as potential distributors can buy "US made rider owned" frames for considerably less.  So without exports, this limits the in-house UK manufacturer to a very small UK market with maybe a few overseas exports.

I think if doing things in-house was that easy, Raleigh, Rickman, DP, Beyond, Zima and Hidden Nation would still be around, but sadly aren't.

I agree that the West has dug a big hole for itself.  Greedy captains of industry who put short term profit before long term stability.

[SaMAlex]

I think if doing things in-house was that easy, Raleigh, Rickman, DP, Beyond, Zima and Hidden Nation would still be around, but sadly aren't.

Mike

You are dead right but I think there is also the "fashion" thing too. No one would buy a Rickman, Raleigh, DP or Curtis at the moment cos they dont have a team of cool riders and a kickin image for themselves*. Kids now dont mind where their bikes are made, as long as they look good on them at the skatepark (this includes having the right weight on the frame spec). Im not saying that they would pay more for a UK made frame, but a company has to have something the kids want to buy into from the start.


*This isnt a good thing, its just how it is

[harris]

nail on head alex

[ron burgundy]

I think if doing things in-house was that easy, Raleigh, Rickman, DP, Beyond, Zima and Hidden Nation would still be around, but sadly aren't.

Mike

You are dead right but I think there is also the "fashion" thing too. No one would buy a Rickman, Raleigh, DP or Curtis at the moment cos they dont have a team of cool riders and a kickin image for themselves*. Kids now dont mind where their bikes are made, as long as they look good on them at the skatepark (this includes having the right weight on the frame spec). Im not saying that they would pay more for a UK made frame, but a company has to have something the kids want to buy into from the start.


*This isnt a good thing, its just how it is

"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town... beep, beep!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2IdQgyxPo&feature=related

 

[dialledbikes]

I think if doing things in-house was that easy, Raleigh, Rickman, DP, Beyond, Zima and Hidden Nation would still be around, but sadly aren't.

Mike

You are dead right but I think there is also the "fashion" thing too. No one would buy a Rickman, Raleigh, DP or Curtis at the moment cos they dont have a team of cool riders and a kickin image for themselves*. Kids now dont mind where their bikes are made, as long as they look good on them at the skatepark (this includes having the right weight on the frame spec). Im not saying that they would pay more for a UK made frame, but a company has to have something the kids want to buy into from the start.


*This isnt a good thing, its just how it is

Alex, I agree 100%.  I'm always saying to people on the race circuit that they aren't savvy enough how they spend their money.  People moan that there aren't enough sponsors/teams in racing, then they go and put money into the pockets of companies that don't even have a UK race team.  Perhaps if more people bought Curtis race frames, Gary would be able to sponsor a few riders and a race team.

[whocareswhatJT71says]

Hi,

I don't normally post on forums, as I am too busy down my local skate park funny enough!!!

But this time I have made an exception, as I'm so BORED of seeing the same people, sorry correction - the same bitter and repetitive people on the same forums talking the same old stories.  I was just wondering if JT71 is getting "Royalties" for he's story about being made to look like a liar, if not you really could be coining it in JT71.

You know who you are, the one's that sit on-line all day, waiting in the wings to pounce on someone that may have something nice or pro active to say about a company that you do not like. Sorry but the people that count are the one's that actually ride the flaming products, not the one's ones that sit on their seat rolling back and forth at amateur nights, tutting loudly at anyone who dares approach them on a UK Frame.

If I had a pound for every time I have been asked If I fear for my safety riding a UK Frame, I would be a millionaire, and do you know what I would do with my millions, I would use the money to back Dibley in he's next venture, why, not only because I think he is a good guy with great idea's, but also so you guys would have something to talk/bitch/moan about.

I cannot be bothered to get into the whole UK Bike Co discussion on here, mainly as a few people's posts are not in anyway factual, interesting or intellectual, they are just down right rude/negative/boring/bitter/jealous etc. But too confirm I NEVER once heard Dibley say he owned the company, in fact he told me exactly who was backing him and where the money came from in ear shot of hundreds of you, but you probably couldn't hear over all that tutting

I not sure why some users are lacking human socialising skills, maybe their mother didn't pay them enough attention, maybe they have middle child syndrome or maybe they cannot perform..........on a bike that is!! 

Why do you feel the need to knock someone just because they made a decision to go for something and it didn't work out?

Does it make you feel better, more like a real man, help you sleep easier at night, or make you feel like you have had your little revenge because you couldn't ride for them/couldn't stock them/weighed to much for their frames???

Who cares, stop bickering, stop knocking people, why not for once try saying something nice, I promise it doesn't hurt.

One last thing, below are some forums that I cannot find the usual stories from the usual disgruntled riders on, so I have listed them for you. That way you can you spend your free time telling them about your hard-done by life! Apologies, but there's no more BMX Forums left, you've tarnished all those, so you will have to make do with these................

www.3angrymen.com
www.menopausematters.co.uk
www.oldfool.org
www.agonybooth.com/Forum
www.menshealthforum.org.uk
www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum
www.thecounsellingforum.co.uk
www.malaysiabrides.com/forum
www.forums.bellaonline.com/

[SaMAlex]

Nice first post. Good on ya for having your say 

Where you from? Sound like you have riden with a few of the RAD members before.

Im not sure why you are pickin out JT71, he aint the only one who dont like UK bikes, much like you have said.

[harris]

great first few posts..