USA -v- Taiwan

[dialledbikes]

How important is it to have a "made in the US" sticker on your bike?  And is it important as a point of principle or a genuine belief that the Americans still make the best BMX frames?

[TwoBobRob]

I think those days are gone now.  I was sad when I heard Hoffman had moved production to Taiwan, but it does seem to be the general opinion that the quality went up after that move, so hey ho....

[lodge]

Did anyone see the"The Taiwan Story" feature in USA Ride Oct 08, its a facinating article with some great pics, i can scan and post up if interested.

[Stodgy]

I would say that it makes no difference where they are made. In fact the majority of Tai frames are probably better as the Taiwanese have invested in all the best machinery and latest equipment to attract customers accross the world...and TBH the product is testiment to that.

The 'Made in USA' badge is just a status symbol that their frame cost more than yours - bit like a New Era sticker on a cap - no tangible advantage, just branding.

Rob is right on the Hoffman stuff; the SE made bikes were nicely made, but Ramp Room were pretty much sub-standard and apart from 'The Egg' the move to Taiwan has been a good one in terms of quality.

I believe that S&M make a fantastic product, but it's no better than any high-end Taiwanese frame. It's price makes it 'reassuringly expensive' (thanks Stella), but if you look at the build quality of any of the recent higher-end Tai stuff it really is awesome (and not just frames; stems, hubs, etc, etc).

That's me.

Great topic.

[stidds]

Makes absolutely no difference to me.  I do have a problem with the US guys thinking that the only country in the world that can weld is the US.  I have broken numerous frames in the past (SE, Hutch, JMC, GT) and the one frame that I NEVER broke was........   Curtis, Nuff said.

[condor96]

makes no diff to me. even tho there is something appealing about a frame being built right down the road from me instead of across the world but for the most part it dont matter to me, tai stuff is very very good quality.

[Peter J]

Makes no difference now..........If you'd said UK and US now there is a difference 

[kev-s]

nowadays there is no difference between the two, but ill still buy american just because its good to see a company like s&m who chose to make a product in their own country even though it will work out more expensive and have lower volumes but means they have full control 24/7 and can employ local people so they are giving something back to thier community, its a shame more uk companies dont do this and im not just talkin about in bmx

[dialledbikes]

Kev, I hear what you're saying, but I doubt if there's anyone in the UK who could make me 200-300 BMX/MTB frames per annum to the same quality as the Taiwanese make for me, and that's before we even start talking about price.

[kdubbmx]

I have an Intense M3 DH frame thats handbuilt in the USA, it does ride really well & has helped me win lots races but when you look closely at it the wheels dont line up fully & when you change the main pivot it takes about 9 of you to make the swingarm line up with the frame where it isnt quite true.

I think that whilst handbuilt bikes are good, what happens if the guy building yours has a bad day on the day he builds it? Robots dont have bad days so robot built bikes should be more consistent??

Not saying one is def better than the other but just looking at the issue objectively.

[kev-s]

mike, thats exactly what i mean about this country, 10 to 20 years ago i bet u could have done it but now because manufactuers want lower costs and higher profits most stuff is made abroad, can u tell me one well known uk bmx company that makes parts in the uk? go back 10-20 years and i bet u could name loads

[dialledbikes]

Kev, having been born and raised in the Steel City, I saw the decline of the UK manufacturing industry first hand.

But I don't think it's just a matter of lower costs/higher profits that have caused that decline.  I just think UK society has higher/different aspirations in general nowadays.  When I was at school, not many people aspired to go to Uni, but now going to Uni seems the norm, so people are better educated.  On the flip side, a lot kids get their heads filled with crap/false hope like X-Factor, Big Brother, Hello/OK and all that bollox so grow up thinking fame/fortune will be handed to them or it's wrong to get their hands dirty to earn a living.  And other areas of the UK economy like banking/finance, consultancy, legal, etc has boomed, making the UK good at making money but not necessarily good at making "things".  In the West we talk about having a career.  In places like Taiwan they talk about having a job.  And I think that's where we start to begin to understand why no one in the UK bothers to mass produce stuff like quality bike frames any more - because being a welder isn't seen as a good career option (unless you're doing it as a labour of love like Chas Roberts, Curtis, Dave Yates, etc), it's just a dirty/unglamourous job which not many people want.

Sorry if this sounds a bit sociological for a BMX forum.  I knew that Grade B at A-level would come in useful one day!

I like the debate this topic is generating though.

[kev-s]

mike i tottaly agree with what your saying, i work for a company in the financial sector and would love to get out and get a proper job making things like bmx frames but unfortunatly because so much of the uk is now financially based our manufactuering has suffered, its a shame the uk is no longer the manufactuering country we once were

[Peter J]

I still believe we have some of the best design engineers and civil engineers in the world......  but I agree with Mike I was born and raised in Sheffield and there are only a hand full of manufacturing/engineering companies left.......

[thecrooch]

personally as a MTB'r in a previous life i was gutted to hear Santa Cruz were stopping production in the US in 2003, Ive still got my 03 Superlight and i've also got a tai built  05 Blur and cant tell the difference between the two in terms of build quality....  didnt make em sell em any cheaper though....

[brass monkey!]

Taiwan now is very different from the 70's/80's Taiwan...

Technology speaking they're up with the Japs and Koreans..

they learn quickly and improve,...can't say if they are better or worse than the Yanks at manufacturing, I must admit that having the 'Made in USA' Sticker adds value to BMX...for heritage reasons if nothing else

[toys19]

Kev, having been born and raised in the Steel City, I saw the decline of the UK manufacturing industry first hand.

But I don't think it's just a matter of lower costs/higher profits that have caused that decline.  I just think UK society has higher/different aspirations in general nowadays.  When I was at school, not many people aspired to go to Uni, but now going to Uni seems the norm, so people are better educated.  On the flip side, a lot kids get their heads filled with crap/false hope like X-Factor, Big Brother, Hello/OK and all that bollox so grow up thinking fame/fortune will be handed to them or it's wrong to get their hands dirty to earn a living.  And other areas of the UK economy like banking/finance, consultancy, legal, etc has boomed, making the UK good at making money but not necessarily good at making "things".  In the West we talk about having a career.  In places like Taiwan they talk about having a job.  And I think that's where we start to begin to understand why no one in the UK bothers to mass produce stuff like quality bike frames any more - because being a welder isn't seen as a good career option (unless you're doing it as a labour of love like Chas Roberts, Curtis, Dave Yates, etc), it's just a dirty/unglamourous job which not many people want.

Sorry if this sounds a bit sociological for a BMX forum.  I knew that Grade B at A-level would come in useful one day!

I like the debate this topic is generating though.

 

Top words Mike.
Most of my clients in the UK are just like you - UK design and marketing - far east manufacturing..

As a materials engineer verging towards design engineer I cant see any diff between US/Taiwan Frames. I would in some ways be more confident in a Taiwan frame, the average us welder has the potential to be a real redneck and having seen some of the Obama hate vids recently I think lots of Americans are thick as pigshit. Your average Taiwanese is probably more motivated to do a good job.

Anyway I'll stick with the consensus, we like UK bikes even if they are made in Taiwan...

 

[darkersomeday]

a taiwanese welder can weld just as good as an american welder,

tai frames are just as good as usa frames these days,

and thats a good thing,

it give folk on a budget access to well made and designed, strong, high quality frames,





but for me its got to be a bit special, bmx means alot to me and i dont want my shit mass produced,

like some dude in switzerland carefully crafting my watch with care and pride,

or some old geezer in japan taking the time to make sure my jeans are one of a kind,

i want my suits tailored by a time served craftsman in saville row,

i want my shit to feel special and i take care of it, make it last,

take my handmade cartier silver money clip, i've had it for nearly 15 years and its with me everyday, its worn smooth and polished, its mine , i know its mine and i like it,

its all alot of arrogant bollocks but it IS the way of the world,

if youre happy with the mass market thats absolutely fine, if you want bespoke get your cash out!

admit it, if you won the fooking lottery tomorow it wouldnt be a daewoo you'd be ordering would it?

[TwoBobRob]

I always thought that the real issue with Tai stuff was simply the quality of the materials involved.  I was lead to believe you can buy good quality and crappy Cromoly, just like everything else in the world.  So, keep a tight grip on the quality of the materials and a quality product would automatically come about.

I know I'm over simplifying the whole thing, but you get my drift...

I'm sure someone told me that's how Hoffman kept the quality high on their Tai stuff - regular visits and constant communication, to make sure no ones standards dropped.

[stidds]

a taiwanese welder can weld just as good as an american welder,

tai frames are just as good as usa frames these days,

and thats a good thing,

it give folk on a budget access to well made and designed, strong, high quality frames,





but for me its got to be a bit special, bmx means alot to me and i dont want my shit mass produced,

like some dude in switzerland carefully crafting my watch with care and pride,

or some old geezer in japan taking the time to make sure my jeans are one of a kind,

i want my suits tailored by a time served craftsman in saville row,

i want my shit to feel special and i take care of it, make it last,

take my handmade cartier silver money clip, i've had it for nearly 15 years and its with me everyday, its worn smooth and polished, its mine , i know its mine and i like it,

its all alot of arrogant bollocks but it IS the way of the world,

if youre happy with the mass market thats absolutely fine, if you want bespoke get your cash out!

admit it, if you won the fooking lottery tomorow it wouldnt be a daewoo you'd be ordering would it?

Joe

I have no fooking idea what you were on about, but thanks for taking the time to reply 

[dialledbikes]

I get Joe's drift.

He accepts the good Taiwanese stuff is up there with the top US stuff these days but he wants something that's a bit more niche, rare or made with a bit more love.  I can relate to that.

[darkersomeday]

no probs stidds


its easy though dude,

flashy shit is more expensive and you make it last a bit longer,

people all over the world can weld equally well but some are paid more than others,

we all fall for the marketing ethos of £££ = better,


i'll put this in cycling terms then,
my tonic fab frame was made buy a guy that ENJOYED building it,he thought it out, he designed it, he even welded the fooker together,
i know the dudes name and can call him and ask him anything about it that i might need to know,
it was built with love,
and (to me) that just makes it a nice thing to have and use,

but it cost a fookload more than a similar tai built frame so...

thats it.

[jT Racing]

as long as the steel doesn't come out of china it should be ok.

[Stodgy]

I agree with you Joe, I buy well and never false economise with the things around me. I've worn the same watch for almost 10 years, it's never missed a beat and never needed servicing. So, I know exactly where you are coming from.

But not every frame from Thailand is mass-market, there are still bespoke/small runs of crafted stuff, with the same quality materials and production methods. Take our new RADBMX FBR Forks and bars...just 30 of each. That's it.

The problem and stigma arises with the cheaper end of the market. Utter shite mass-market rubbish made by bean-counters.

[Gary72]

I think it comes down to the quailty of the materials, like some have said before a welder is a welder; But there is so many variations and markerting terms, Q BAKED, SANKO, 4 BUTTED, POST WELD HEAT TREATED to name a few it all gets too much. I think as always it comes down to money and everyone buys the best they can afford. Like Joe said if I was to win the lottery, I would probably buy S&M/STANDARD but only because I would want to go to the USA and collect it. There is a SNOB in all of us (not having a dig at Joe)
My old man used to have a saying 'The dearest is the cheapest in the long run' very true I think about alot of things, but we seem to live in a disposable world.