Author Topic: CARBON FIBRE BMX FRAMES? (Read 7891 times)

proclass35 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 09, 2008, 08:05 PM »

"will 1lb win a race? never."
Why do you think a 1000bhp F1 car runs that close to the weight limit that it has to pick up loose rubber on the in-lap?
How did Colin Chapman manage to beat the might have Ferrari with a car using an engine out of a fire hydrant?
Why do moto GP teams bother to drill the flanges on titanium bolts?
Theres a simple formula that exists thats called the power to weight ratio, and it's the difference between a tenth or a hundredth of a second that wins or loses a race. In any wheeled sport where a power source propels a vehicle this is the crux of all design as to producing maximum performance. It's not some tosh that I've just invented. A freind of mine went to Frank Wrathall (and if you know anything about bikes/karts you'll know who he is) to try and get a couple more bhp out of his 125cc 2-stroke engine. The engine tuner could have took a couple of grand off him for 1 more bhp, but instead he told him to save his money and come back when he'd lost a stone of weight.....
But, I didn't even refer to weight when I was discussing the development of alternative materials!..and I certainly wasn't dismissing the use of metals in any application.In most of which you have listed they are far more suitable than carbon-rollcages etc. What I was trying to dispell was the suspicion and negativity in the development of alternatives, and I don't just mean carbon. The only cracks in Johnny's Carlos Fandango frames I've seen have been in aluminium, but I still chose to buy one for my son. I don't suggest for one second that a trick frame is going to improve the rider if they are crap in the first place, and I really can't understand your comment about a novice being as quick as a world champ? I think you're missing the point there. It's about individual improvement and the rider and the bike both being as good as they possibly can be, be it a novice or at the highest level.
You're right that karts don't have monocoque chassis, and that carbon is not used in lower level formulae. In fact carbon and titanium components are banned from many 'sportsman' classes for the very reason that they offer so many advantages (thats why F1 and Moto GP use a lot of it!). It's to make sure that the teams with the biggest development budgets don't run riot and enjoy an unfair advantage. We don't have the restrictions of homologation in BMX, and someone else is paying for the development, so lets enjoy the alternatives..whatever you choose to ride.
Mike@dialled- I've read your post elsewhere and I think your points are fair and valid. You may be interested to know that when I set out to build a custom mini-BMX for my son it was you that I first contacted to see if you'd build him a titanium frame, you may remember the e-mail. For whatever reason it wasn't a valid proposition, but at least it backs up my point that I've nothing against any material!

zed4130 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 09, 2008, 08:38 PM »

personaly i would want a bike that i could ride everything on , so 4130 is best for alround bmx'ing, but i suppose if you just have 1 race bike, then why not, average joe wants a alround bike, and if you only have 1 bike, then thats fair enough, and to me was always how bmx was, but that was bitd, bmx has moved on in leaps and bounds, although this isnt new, CF has been used before in bmx, but as i said on the other post i did, i noticed a few years back in the vans triple crown down hill races, nearly all the riders changed there forks to 4130, plus riders like neil wood did well without spd's and ali frames, and there was a few broken carbon forks at those races, plus broken ali frames, but if you have the dosh, or are sponsored why not,

dialledbikes · « **Reply #27 on:** May 09, 2008, 08:44 PM »

Ahhh, I'm getting sucked into this again.

As said before, I have nothing against carbon frames per se. And you're right that we will never know if advances can be made if R&D isn't done, so it's not even the companies who are making these carbon frames I take offence to either. My issues are with the "carbon is progression" crowd who are jumping on this carbon bandwagon (probably because the frames match their clips

) and proclaiming it the next big thing in BMX before having any results or data to prove their claims. Emperor's new clothes syndrome I call it.

Carbon has been successful in low impact sports like road and track racing, but has hardly set the world alight in mountain biking, and it's a long way off proving itself in BMX.

By the way, I think this looks gorgeous:

perry · « **Reply #28 on:** May 09, 2008, 08:50 PM »

but bmx doesnt neeed carbon frames

its just a move to take a sport that anyone can go out and do to making it another lycra clad weight weenie sport driven by athletes like road and track racing is

its hardly going to get people involved when they see the top riders on these things , its not exactly something the majority can aspire to is it

but these people will always be beaten by people that spend their money on experience and not the latest ounce saving tat

i love the reference to gp / kart and formula 1 , they are known for the rough tracks they run on

first rule of racing , build for the conditions

im not against composites , but in the right places , like bottle cages

proclass35 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 09, 2008, 09:22 PM »

I'm not sure if BMX needs carbon frames either, but at least let's find out. Carbon has it's place as a viable alternative to other materials in certain applications, that's for sure. So lets see how far it can be pushed before we start dishing out the 'I told you so's'.
Perry, to understand the loads and stresses on a racing kart you really have to have driven one. I've ridden BMX and raced Karts. There's really no comparison.

Philbert · « **Reply #30 on:** May 09, 2008, 09:28 PM »

i'm a big fan of carbon fibre! and steel, and alloys,

i think for bmx its still in early stages of development though and everyone loves the diamond shape frame because of it simplicity. i like what can be done with carbon fibre, i spent a lot of time in about 97 studying how scott developed its project endorphin xc bike to be hardtail frame with 2 inches of travel, i was fascinated! you can create carbon fibre to do exactly what you want it to do unfortunately for bmx the only companies that can afford to develop such things are the fat cat companies like gt. saw they're latest version of the legendary zaskar in carbon fibre today and its fookin lovely!
in heinsight to that a lot of development is still going on with other materials still with alloys being hydro formed into odd shapes to give the right amount of strength where needed and chromoly tubing is still being developed to be stronger with different heat treating methods to make lighter frames and still hold the expected strength of a bmx frame

i would like to see a carbon fibre monocoque frame still in the basic diamond shape of a bmx to see how slick it looks, i think the biggest issue with cf frames is the whacky designs the manufacturers come up with. if they can make it that light with the strength in the right places theres no reason why a freestyle frame couldn't be produced these days with the lack of peg usage! wild statement i know but its true!

although power to weight ratio can be important to any sport. it can definately give you an edge from the start gate and when sprinting but experience and talent to me are the most important aspects on the track. you could be the fastet fooker on earth but if you can't glide across jumps and outwit other riders on corners with different racing lines then your not going to win!

Dark Diggler · « **Reply #31 on:** May 09, 2008, 10:17 PM »

Quote from: mike@dialledbikes on May 09, 2008, 08:44 PM

Carbon has been successful in low impact sports like road and track racing, but has hardly set the world alight in mountain biking,

no offence mike but thats not true, in cross country it is the only choice, admittedly in DH and Freeride you are correct. BMX race is comparable to cross country impact for impact, unless ridden poorly, so I see no reason why Carbon can't be explored as an option for pro race bikes.

bof · « **Reply #32 on:** May 09, 2008, 10:32 PM »

Quote from: proclass35 on May 09, 2008, 08:05 PM

"will 1lb win a race? never."
Why do you think a 1000bhp F1 car runs that close to the weight limit that it has to pick up loose rubber on the in-lap?
How did Colin Chapman manage to beat the might have Ferrari with a car using an engine out of a fire hydrant?
Why do moto GP teams bother to drill the flanges on titanium bolts?
Theres a simple formula that exists thats called the power to weight ratio, and it's the difference between a tenth or a hundredth of a second that wins or loses a race. In any wheeled sport where a power source propels a vehicle this is the crux of all design as to producing maximum performance. It's not some tosh that I've just invented. A freind of mine went to Frank Wrathall (and if you know anything about bikes/karts you'll know who he is) to try and get a couple more bhp out of his 125cc 2-stroke engine. The engine tuner could have took a couple of grand off him for 1 more bhp, but instead he told him to save his money and come back when he'd lost a stone of weight.....
But, I didn't even refer to weight when I was discussing the development of alternative materials!..and I certainly wasn't dismissing the use of metals in any application.In most of which you have listed they are far more suitable than carbon-rollcages etc. What I was trying to dispell was the suspicion and negativity in the development of alternatives, and I don't just mean carbon. The only cracks in Johnny's Carlos Fandango frames I've seen have been in aluminium, but I still chose to buy one for my son. I don't suggest for one second that a trick frame is going to improve the rider if they are crap in the first place, and I really can't understand your comment about a novice being as quick as a world champ? I think you're missing the point there. It's about individual improvement and the rider and the bike both being as good as they possibly can be, be it a novice or at the highest level.
You're right that karts don't have monocoque chassis, and that carbon is not used in lower level formulae. In fact carbon and titanium components are banned from many 'sportsman' classes for the very reason that they offer so many advantages (thats why F1 and Moto GP use a lot of it!). It's to make sure that the teams with the biggest development budgets don't run riot and enjoy an unfair advantage. We don't have the restrictions of homologation in BMX, and someone else is paying for the development, so lets enjoy the alternatives..whatever you choose to ride.
Mike@dialled- I've read your post elsewhere and I think your points are fair and valid. You may be interested to know that when I set out to build a custom mini-BMX for my son it was you that I first contacted to see if you'd build him a titanium frame, you may remember the e-mail. For whatever reason it wasn't a valid proposition, but at least it backs up my point that I've nothing against any material!

BLOODY HELL JAMIE HAVE YOU BEEN USING THE CARBON FIBRE BOTTLE OPENER AGAIN.

dialledbikes · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2008, 12:25 AM »

Quote from: Dark Diggler on May 09, 2008, 10:17 PM

Quote from: mike@dialledbikes on May 09, 2008, 08:44 PM
Carbon has been successful in low impact sports like road and track racing, but has hardly set the world alight in mountain biking,

no offence mike but thats not true, in cross country it is the only choice, admittedly in DH and Freeride you are correct. BMX race is comparable to cross country impact for impact, unless ridden poorly, so I see no reason why Carbon can't be explored as an option for pro race bikes.

No offence taken

. I disagree though. Carbon isn't the "only" choice in XC. Sure, it's quite popular, but I still reckon more people ride aluminium frames.

Anyway, I keep getting drawn into this debate when I really don't care anymore

I might design myself a carbon cruiser for next season now, just for a laugh

perry · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2008, 11:06 AM »

proclass , surely its just an assumption whether or not ive had a go in a kart

and isnt that a personal gripe in a discusion about a particular materials merits in bmx

you make it sound as if we all hate carbon fibre , which we dont . i have carbon fibre forks and seatpost on my STEEL kona and it flexs and creaks , but it has its use there . isnt it just the very top level of xc racing and the weekend warrior office crowd that sweats their balls over carbon xc stuff . everyone ive seen out on the trails has steel and alloy

if someone wants a state of the art frame good for them , but dont cry when the r&d money has been put into the product and not into the upkeep of numerous tracks that would benefit from a bit of corporate sponsorship

all i can see happening is gt knocking out a few of their scaled down zaskars to the top american riders , the rich buying a few for the bling factor and a whole slew of kids disheartened because their parents cant afford to buy the seemingly "must have to be at the top " kit

its a step back in my yes , but thats just my humble opinion of course

proclass35 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2008, 01:04 PM »

Perry, it really wasn't meant as a personal gripe so aplogies on that one. I don't mind a good debate but confrontation isn't really my thing. The only reason I responded to the thread on RAD as opposed to the one on Talk is that every thread on there seems to end in handbags, so I'm sorry if it seemed that way. Anyway, I'm off to clean my lad's bike ready for Mansfield tomorrow- it's an aluminium Supercross with lots of Ti and carbon !

perry · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2008, 01:14 PM »

dont worry about it were all grown ups here

discusions are great

good luck tomorrow , lets have plenty of pics of the bike and the riding

zed4130 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 13, 2008, 07:13 AM »

i personaly have used alsorts for xc mountain biking since 88, and still prefere steel, ali i find to stiff, no natural flex (rigid) as i use a rigid mtb i prefere my tange prestige tubing, plus ive had it since 95 and although ive had many mtb's i still prefere this frame, in bmx racing surly ali is good as its stiff ( good of the gate less flex ? ) titanium flexes abit like steel so surly you lose there , ive heard that ali frames just about last a season of racing as get brittle, i like steel, as they go on and on, so £ for £ better value for the novice rider or on a budget ,

paul

dialledbikes · « **Reply #38 on:** May 15, 2008, 07:05 PM »

Titanium1st
Cro-mo 2nd
Carbon 3rd

Dark Diggler · « **Reply #39 on:** May 15, 2008, 07:08 PM »

HEYWOOD BMX · « **Reply #40 on:** May 15, 2008, 07:21 PM »

NEW GT CARBON FIBRE ULTRABOX 2-LOOKS NICE!

proclass35 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 15, 2008, 10:43 PM »

Keep up Mike, frames are so last season. Forks are the new frames...so it looks like Carbon 1st, Pig Iron 2nd, Carbon 3rd from where I'm standing...and that GT still looks sh1t ....where are we going with this?

HEYWOOD BMX · « **Reply #42 on:** May 15, 2008, 11:38 PM »

[quote author=proclass35
Keep up Mike, frames are so last season. Forks are the new frames...so it looks like Carbon 1st, Pig Iron 2nd, Carbon 3rd from where I'm standing...and that GT still looks sh1t ....where are we going with this?

]

Glasgow ?

darkersomeday · « **Reply #43 on:** May 16, 2008, 10:13 AM »

Quote from: HEYWOOD BMX on May 15, 2008, 07:21 PM

NEW GT CARBON FIBRE ULTRABOX 2-LOOKS NICE!

crazy, i was just going to say,
" i wonder if anyone will ever make a bmx that looks like a big fooking ugly d1ck with a b0ll0ck on each side to pedal with"

and GT have done it!

sonic-1 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 16, 2008, 03:02 PM »

i had the chance to have a good look at the gt at hernbay n i must say i realy like the way they used a diffrent weave on the prepeg carbon it looks great but i was surprized by its weight

my o/s haro was lighter the guy who owned it even admited that !!!! but he said its very rigid n is great out the gate
im all up for usein wot ever stuff is the new best as its never goin to realy help me win as iv not got the skills but for those that have if it helps why not

dialledbikes · « **Reply #45 on:** May 16, 2008, 03:31 PM »

Quote from: sonic-1 on May 16, 2008, 03:02 PM

but i was surprized by its weight my o/s haro was lighter the guy who owned it even admited that !!!!

Yeah, me too. I know Wayne quite well so we had a good chat about the bike and compared it to the weight of my Ti cruiser, and my bike was noticably lighter as well.

I actually thought it looked a lot better in the flesh than it does in pics though.