Rider owned vs corporate

[WizardWeb]

Here's something I thought of after reading the "What happened" thread.

BITD Huffy, Raleigh etc, were the corporates. SE, S&M, Haro and Dyno were rider owned and GT was a father of a rider owned company.

Now through various ownership changes, Haro and GT are the corporates. Proper, FBM, etc (and still S&M) are the rider owned.

So out of the current crop, who will move into the 'corporate' bracket?

[SaMAlex]

S&M were "made an offer" in the 90s. It didnt happen, and I cant see that changing

[darkersomeday]

what do you class as "a corporate bmx company" if you do mind me asking?

any examples?

[MartyC]

what do you class as "a corporate bmx company" if you do mind me asking?

any examples?

Can't beleive you're asking that question Joe 

I'm guessing today it would be the GT's, Redline's, Haro's, etc.

[SaMAlex]

who does own GT now? Didnt they go bust several times, once only a few years ago?

[YGT]

GT is owned by pacific

[YGT]

if you look at most companies for 2008 they all seem to be trying to go "coporate" ... by this i mean sell numbers and maximise profits.
so many companies are springing up and making complete bikes in china ....

[WizardWeb]

if you look at most companies for 2008 they all seem to be trying to go "coporate" ... by this i mean sell numbers and maximise profits.
so many companies are springing up and making complete bikes in china ....

That's kind of what I mean, a lot of the indies seem to be doing the same things as the 'corporates'. Even S&M source some of their stuff from taiwan. Ironic as they ran that ad a few years back claiming all things made in Taiwan was dangerous and American is better.

Another way of looking at it is: do companies really become corporate or is it that the new kids coming into the sport only identify with the new companies and see the older ones as not relevant, like aging rockers not making the charts anymore....?

[dialledbikes]

Are rider-owned and corporate mutually exclusive?  Most bike companies are "corporate" in the fact that they are incorporated.

And why does getting stuff made in Taiwan make a bike company "corporate"?  I don't really get that logic.

To me, "corporate" in the sense of the word which people see as negative means big, caring more about profit than quality, not having anything in common with their customers, not giving something back to the sport.

S&M seems to have interests in a number of companies such as Fit, Black Market Bikes and Metal just like GT did with Powerlite, Robinson, Dyno, Auburn, etc.  Is it any less rider owned/focussed (regardless of where it's products are made)?  I agree that it would be odd/slightly hypocritical for S&M to source Taiwanese goods after running that anti-Taiwan ad a few years ago though.

Some of the early rider owned companies have been around a while now so maybe their owners are getting to the point where they are taking things a bit more serious from a business perspective and that's being perceived as "going corporate".

[SaMAlex]

I think the S&M Taiwan add was about getting FRAMES made over there. They do sell some S&M products that are made in the far east, but all the frames, bars and forks are US made (if that makes them better is a whole 'nother thread).

Oh, and it is "S&M Incoporated" too, but again, not sure what that means as far as this thread goes

[gossa]

Alex, I think Chris had a good offer pretty much as soon as he got S&M going, from GT who knew he would be a threat.

From my POV, the product has to do the talking, don't matter who owns it or where they source it.

[SaMAlex]

Alex, I think Chris had a good offer pretty much as soon as he got S&M going, from GT who knew he would be a threat.

A good offer ... or S&M were backed into a corner when GT were making S&M frames. I wonder if the "offer" included workin out a deal for the bill after GT had over-produced frames? Surely that CANT have been how GT managed to take over so many other BMX companies 

The offer I was talking about was in the mid 90s.

From my POV, the product has to do the talking, don't matter who owns it or where they source it.

Very good point 

[gossa]

Alex, I think Chris had a good offer pretty much as soon as he got S&M going, from GT who knew he would be a threat.

A good offer ... or S&M were backed into a corner when GT were making S&M frames. I wonder if the "offer" included workin out a deal for the bill after GT had over-produced frames? Surely that CANT have been how GT managed to take over so many other BMX companies 

It was totally, Todd Huffman and Bob Morales (partners in Mor Distr) lost Auburn to GT after they got in too deep, it was thier way of 'acquiring' brands. Funny, Chris was working at Mor Dist around the time that happened, hammering the shite out of CR20R back ends to get them on! Mor owned Dirt Research too, remember those tyres?

[dialledbikes]

One of the reasons I respect Moeller (apart from starting his own BMX company at the age most teenagers are dropping out of BMX and turning it into one of the best BMX companies ever) is the fact he didn't sell out to Specialized when it must have been very tempting to bank a tidy sum.

I think Specialized is a great bike company (personally, I wouldn't ride any other brand of full-sus freeride bike), but S&M as we know would have disappeared.

It's cool that S&M still make their frames, forks and bars in the US when they could make bigger profits by switching to Taiwan.  Long may it continue as it's something that is associated with BMX and a principle the company was built on.  Though I thought it was a bit of a low shot when that anti-Taiwan ad came out, especially as Fit and Black Market (companies which are associated with/co-owned by S&M) have Taiwanese frames in their line ups.

Like Clive says, the product should do the talking, regardless of where it's made.

[gossa]

MIKE SAID
It's cool that S&M still make their frames, forks and bars in the US when they could make bigger profits by switching to Taiwan. 

CLIVE SAYS
Maybe not Mike, Chris charges a premium over taiwanese made frames (as he should), if he sourced 'off shore', he'd have to re-align his pricing to compete with other far eastern made brands so pop goes his USP?

Chris will do what he does very well for a long time I think and good luck to him although history has shown he doesn't need luck.......

[dialledbikes]

MIKE SAID
It's cool that S&M still make their frames, forks and bars in the US when they could make bigger profits by switching to Taiwan. 

CLIVE SAYS
Maybe not Mike, Chris charges a premium over taiwanese made frames (as he should), if he sourced 'off shore', he'd have to re-align his pricing to compete with other far eastern made brands so pop goes his USP?

Chris will do what he does very well for a long time I think and good luck to him although history has shown he doesn't need luck.......

I think the S&M brand is so strong now that people would still pay a premium for it, even if made in Taiwan.

Very few customers will really care about where the product is made, more about the name on it (as long as the product is still good quality, which I'm sure a Taiwanese S&M would be).

S&M could make a killing if it made a mountain bike frame.  But I guess that's what Black Market Bikes is for.

[gossa]

Agree Mike but many other brands that are made in Taiwan have tons of brand credibility, I think Chris knows if he went to taiwan for frames it would be the beginning of the end as he's shouted about it to loud and too long.  Plus his stuff I think still has an edge over most of the Taiwanese stuff in terms of build quality (from what i've seen recently).

Mike, as for spesh being the best freeride bike, you need to get out more fella!

[dialledbikes]

Agree Mike but many other brands that are made in Taiwan have tons of brand credibility, I think Chris knows if he went to taiwan for frames it would be the beginning of the end as he's shouted about it to loud and too long.  Plus his stuff I think still has an edge over most of the Taiwanese stuff in terms of build quality (from what i've seen recently).

Mike, as for spesh being the best freeride bike, you need to get out more fella!

Agreed that S&M would possibly lose some die-hard fans if they switched from US, simply because it's been a big principle of the company since day 1.

I just love the Spesh 4 bar design. Had a Big Hit and 2 SX Trails.  Sold all my full-sus bikes for now, but when I buy another it will be another SX Trail.  Tried/owned lots of other bikes like Ellsworth, Kona, Turner, Norco, Banshee, Nicolai, Cannondale but for me, the SX Trail just feels right.  Great value for money as well.

[gossa]

Man you've had a lot of mountain bikes Mike! Surely your favourite is your dialled!

My fave mtb was my US made GT LTS, same 4 bar, great bike BITD.

[dialledbikes]

Man you've had a lot of mountain bikes Mike! Surely your favourite is your dialled!

My fave mtb was my US made GT LTS, same 4 bar, great bike BITD.

Not as many MTBs as you've had BMXs 

I haven't owned all of the bikes above, but I have ridden them all at some point cos various mates at various times have owned them.

My fave hardtail MTB was my dialled bikes Kobe Ti.  But I've never designed a full-sus (I'm not clever enough for that, plus I know I wouldn't be able to design one better or for less money than Specialized).  I love those SX Trail bikes though.  Ridden them in the Alps a lot and they just feel right for that kind of riding.

[gossa]

Mike, Cy@cotic is doing pretty well, you'd be surprised what you can come up with!

My fava hardtail was my Fat Chance Yo Eddy, hmmmm, steel......

[dialledbikes]

I think the Cotic uses a 4-bar also.  But I'd still rather have a Specialized SX Trail.