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Author Topic: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......  (Read 1210 times)

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Offline pickle

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Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« on: February 22, 2007, 11:48 AM »
North west London or in Hertfordshire?

All my local bike shops seem to have a Joey Deacon attack when i tell them the hubs and rims are about 15 years old  :-\

If anyone can do them for me and lives near me, i'd gladly pay them rather than the Joeys in my LBS  :crazy2:

Cheers  :daumenhoch:

Offline oberonspacefruit

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 11:56 AM »
do it yourself, its easy.
I want to touch ORB

Offline harris

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 12:08 PM »
yes do it yourself.its a piece of cake and save a few quid.its only the truing that needs a bit of time to learn.

Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 12:08 PM »
my worry is they would look like Z rims after they'd been trashed!  :-\

Don't you need one of those frame thingys to hold the wheel and to help true it?

Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 12:10 PM »
Hmmmmm think i might look at Stidds 'how to' piece and have a go???   :-\

Offline harris

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 12:13 PM »
no you can put your newly built wheel in a set of forks and set the brakes up for your guide.

Offline jimwise68

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 12:22 PM »
Do it, it's good fun and once learnt  you can do them for other people!  :LolLolLolLol:

Seriously, it is easy and very satisfying. I built 4 wheels up last Friday night.  :daumenhoch:

Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 12:22 PM »
It's a good job one of us is thinking  :LolLolLolLol:

Good idea!!   :daumenhoch:

Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 12:24 PM »
I just need to buy the spokes now then.........what size should i buy?  they are Araya earo (style) rims and small flange hubs.


Offline dordymush

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 12:26 PM »
so what do you do if the wheels out a bit as you spin it.
do you tight the spokes up by the bit thats out.
never done this before myself.
dave the bmxing gypo


Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 12:30 PM »
Thats a good question!

Frosty

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 01:15 PM »
Dordy and Pickle,

I use the following from the Sheldon Brown site http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html (the bit I print out I have pasted below)

Initial spoke adjustment
Once the wheel is laced, adjust all of the nipples so that each is screwed equally far onto its spoke. You should be able to do this with a screwdriver, preferably electric. A good starting point is to set them all so that the threads just disappear into the nipples. If the spokes are a bit on the short side, you may have to leave a few threads showing. The important thing at this stage is to get all 36 spokes to be as close as possible to the same setting, all pretty loose. Some may be a bit tighter or looser, but they should all be adjusted the same to provide a baseline. If you find some are much tighter than others, double check the spoking pattern. With some rims, the rim seam is thicker than other parts of the rim, so you may need to loosen up the two spokes closest to the seam (usually opposite from the valve hole) a couple of turns.
At this stage, the spokes will not be running straight, but will be noticeably curved where they leave the hub. The leading spokes, in particular, will be swooping outward as they leave the hub then gradually curving back toward the rim. Before you start applying tension to the spokes you should bend them by hand so that they fit snugly against the sides of the hub flanges. This can be done easily by pressing on each spoke in turn with your thumb about an inch out from the hub. If you don't do this, the spokes will still be slightly curved when the wheel is finished. These curves will gradually straighten themselves out over the first few hundred miles on the road, and the wheel will lose tension and go out of true.


Tensioning and truing
Now you are ready to put the wheel into the truing stand. If you are lucky it will already be fairly true, but don't be surprised if it is way off. If the spokes are still very loose, so that you can wiggle the rim back and forth easily, tighten each spoke one full turn. Start at the valve hole and work your way around until you get back to it, so that you won't lose count. Make sure you are turning the nipples the right way.
When you work with a screwdriver, it is easy to figure out which way tightens them, clockwise. It gets confusing when you start using the spoke wrench, because now you are working from the back side of the clock!

Continue bringing up the tension one full turn at a time until the wheel begins to firm up.

Once there begins to be a little bit of tension on the wheel, you should start bringing it into shape. There are 4 different things that you need to bring under control to complete the job: lateral truing, vertical truing, dishing, and tensioning. As you proceed, keep checking all 4 of these factors, and keep working on whichever is worse at the moment.

Try to make your truing adjustments independent of each other. For lateral truing, spin the wheel in the stand and find the place on the rim that is farthest away from where most of the rim is. If the rim is off to the left, tighten spokes that go to the right flange and loosen those that go to the left flange. If you do the same amount of tightening and loosening, you can move the rim to the side without affecting the roundness of the wheel. For example, if the rim is off to the left, and the center of the bend is between two spokes, tighten the spoke that goes to the right flange 1/4 turn, and loosen the spoke that goes left 1/4 turn; If the center of the left bend is next to a spoke that goes to the right flange, tighten that spoke 1/4 turn, and loosen each of the two left spokes next to it 1/8 turn; If the center of the left bend is next to a spoke that goes to the left flange, loosen that spoke 1/4 turn, and tighten each of the two right spokes next to it 1/8 turn. After adjusting the worst bend to the left, find the worst bend to the right, and adjust it. Keep alternating sides. Don't try to make each bent area perfect, just make it better, then go on to the next. The wheel will gradually get truer and truer as you go.

For vertical truing, find the highest high spot on the rim. If the center of this high spot is between two spokes, tighten each of them 1/2 turn. If the high spot is centered over one spoke, tighten that spoke one full turn, and each of the two spokes next to it that go to the other flange, 1/2 turn. It takes a larger adjustment to affect the vertical truing than the horizontal truing. Vertical truing should usually be done by tightening spokes, gradually building up the tension in the wheel as you go along.

As soon as the lateral truing gets reasonably good (within a couple of millimeters) start checking the dishing. Put the adjustable feeler of the dish stick over the axle on one side of the wheel and adjust it so that both ends of the dish stick touch the rim while the middle feeler rests against the outer locknut on the axle. Then move the stick to the other side of the wheel without re-adjusting the feeler. If the dish stick rocks back and forth while in contact with the outer locknut, the spokes on that side of the wheel have to be tightened to pull the rim over. If the ends of the dish stick sit on the rim but the feeler won't reach the locknut, the spokes on the other side of the wheel need to be tightened. If the dishing is off by more than 2 or 3 millimeters, you should start at the valve hole and work your way around the rim tightening up all 18 spokes on the appropriate side the same amount, perhaps 1/2 turn.

When the dish is starting to get within 1 or 2 millimeters of being correct, go back to working on the lateral truing, except now you will not be alternating sides. If the rim needs to move to the right to improve the dish, find the worst bend to the left, adjust it, then find the new worst bend to the left, and so on.

All the time you are doing this you need to keep checking the vertical truing, and whenever the vertical error is greater than the lateral error, work on the vertical.

You also need to keep monitoring the tension on the freewheel side spokes. There are three ways to check tension. One is by how hard it is to turn the spoke wrench. If it starts to get hard enough that you have to start worrying about rounding off the nipple with the spoke wrench, you are approaching the maximum. Fifteen years ago, this would be the limiting factor, and you would just try to get the wheel as tight as you could without stripping nipples. Modern, high quality, spokes and nipples have more precisely machined threads, however, and now there is actually a possibility of getting them too tight, causing rim failure.

The second way of judging spoke tension is by plucking the spokes where they cross and judging the musical pitch they make. If your shop doesn't have a piano, and you don't have perfect pitch, you can compare it with a known good wheel that uses the same gauge of spokes. This will get you into the ballpark. Before I started using a spoke tensiometer, I used to keep a cassette in my toolbox on which I had recorded my piano playing an F#, a good average reference tone for stainless spokes of usual length. (For more details on this method, see John Allen's article: Check Spoke Tension by Ear.)

The third, and best way is with a spoke tensiometer. Every well equipped shop should have one. Average freewheel-side tension should be up to shop standards for the type of spokes and rim being used. More important is that it be even. Don't worry about the left side tension on rear wheels. If the freewheel side is correctly tensioned, and the wheel is correctly dished, the left side will be quite a bit looser. You should still check the left side for uniformity of tension.


Spoke Torsion
As the wheel begins to come into tension, you start to have to deal with spoke torsion. When you turn your spoke wrench, the first thing that happens is that the spoke will twist a bit from the friction of the threads. Once the nipple has turned far enough, the twist in the spoke will give enough resistance that the threads will start to move, but the spoke will remain twisted. What a good wheelbuilder can do that a robot machine can't do is feel this twist. If you "finish" you wheel up, and it is perfectly true in your stand, but the spokes are twisted, the wheel will not stay true on the road. The twist in the spokes will eventually work itself out, and the wheel will go out of true.
This problem can be prevented by sensitive use of your spoke wrench. What you need to do is overshoot and backlash. In other words, suppose you want to tighten a particular spoke 1/4 turn. You don't just turn the wrench 1/4 turn, you turn it a little farther, then back it up that same little bit. The nipple winds up being 1/4 turn tighter, but the backing up releases the twist in the spoke.

This is much easier to do on straight-gauge spokes, because they are stiffer torsionally, and it is easier to feel the twist than it is with butted spokes. This is one of the reasons I like "aerodynamic" spokes so much; not so much for the aerodynamics, as for the fact that you can tell visually if they are twisted.


Seating and Stress Relieving the Spokes
Before a wheel is ready for the road it must be stress relieved, because the bend in the spoke has to accommodate itself to the shape of the hub flange and vice versa, and a similar process may go on where the nipple sits in the rim. Some wheelbuilders do this by flexing the whole wheel, others by grabbing the spokes in groups of 4 and squeezing them together. My preferred technique is to use a lever to bend the spokes around each other where they cross. My favorite lever for this is an old left crank:



This particular technique has the added advantage of bending the spokes neatly around each other at the crossing, so they run straight from the crossing in both directions. As you go around the wheel this way you will probably hear creaks and pinging sounds as the parts come into more intimate terms with each other.
After you do this, you will probably have to do some touch-up truing, then repeat the stressing process until it stops making noise and the wheel stops going out of true.

Jobst Brandt , author of the excellent book The Bicycle Wheel  points out a less obvious benefit of this stressing of the spokes:

"...After cold forming, steel always springs back a certain amount (spokes are entirely cold formed from wire). Spring-back occurs because part of the material exceeded its elastic limit and part did not. The disparate parts fight each other in tension and compression, so that when the spoke is tensioned, it adds to the tensile stress that can be, and often is, at yield.
"...When spokes are bent into place, they yield locally and addition of tension guarantees that these places remain at yield. Because metal, at or near the yield stress has a short fatigue life, these stresses must be relieved to make spokes durable.

"...These peak stresses can be relieved by momentarily increasing spoke tension (and stress), so that the high stress points of the spoke yield and plastically deform with a permanent set. When the stress relief force is relaxed these areas cannot spring back having, in effect, lost their memory, and drop to the average stress of the spoke."


If you have done this, you will wind up with a wheel that is true and round, and will stay that way better than most machine made wheels. In addition, you will have learned a lot about truing wheels, and you will feel more like a real professional mechanic.


Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 03:11 PM »
Cheers mate.....once i've bought my spokes, i'm gunna have a go  :daumenhoch:

Offline stidds

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 03:23 PM »
Go on, do it yourself, it is sooo satisfying and a great skill to learn.

As for how to true up the rim.  This is how I do it:


1) I screw every nipple on the spoke the same amount of turns, i.e. 5 turns each spoke until every spoke is on the wheel.  This will ensure you have a base tension to work from.
2) Now I will screw every spoke the same amount of turns to true up, i.e. turn each one 1 turn until every spoke is done.
3) Repeat the above until the spoke start to get tensioned.
4) When all of the spokes have a decent tension on them, start to turn each spoke 1/2 or 1/4 of a turn until you have a properly tensioned wheel.

If you do the above then you will find that you have none or very little truing of the wheel to do.

I know that the above is quite slow work but once you get used to lacing and truing a wheel you can do the above by feel.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 03:26 PM by stidds »

Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 03:39 PM »
Yeah cheers mate.........i shall get the spokes and do it myself!! 

At the end of the day i can always get a shop to true them if i struggle  :daumenhoch:

Frosty

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2007, 04:10 PM »
That's the spirit!!

Offline Moose

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2007, 02:29 PM »
Pickle - if you end up needing a shop's help, I'm in East Herts and there's a good guy I use near me  :daumenhoch:

Offline pickle

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2007, 04:19 PM »
Cheers mate....you're a star!  :daumenhoch:

FuNMoNsTeR

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2007, 10:43 PM »
I just bought a wheel stand....If you cant true them yourself send them to me and i will do them for you.... just cover shipping ;)

Trev

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2007, 01:11 AM »
fook that... if it were me, i'd buy lazychubs or billstup a few beers and then ask them very nicely if they could help me out...  >:D

zed4130

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2007, 07:28 AM »
 :LolLolLolLol:  joe deaken  i renber him ' we all at school called each other it if we did something stupid  :2funny: we were lovely children  >:D   :2funny:

Offline MartyC

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Re: Anyone on here build wheels and live near......
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2007, 11:46 AM »
:LolLolLolLol:  joe deaken  i renber him ' we all at school called each other it if we did something stupid  :2funny: we were lovely children  >:D   :2funny:

Joey, that's a phrase and a half from bitd  :LolLolLolLol:


Better to crash and burn than fade away

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