Cheers guys, the more info the better, yea harris im deffinatly not expecting to be the next flatland king really but am going to atleast try to get jester position! Thanks glen for the site, griff i had alot of practice at spinning in circles, my fav game as a kid was dizzy dinosaws, try it drunk whilst looking up, pointing to the sky with one hand and finger on nose with the other, last time my friend did ithe ended up in a hedge, was incredibly funny