holmes

[balladof32]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-M-HOLMES-frame-1st-gen-1-threaded-Chrome-BMX-mid-old-school-Dirt-bike-/220882976712?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item336da6bfc8

[Betty]

It's been ont bay for a while now, bit overpriced considering it needs work to make it right

Would love a mk1 Holmes or Dirtbike... 

Got a mk2 Holmes if anyone fancies a swap... 

[lk_97]

If I can find a 1/18" s&m cheap, I'd seriously think about using it instead of my wtp frame

[Betty]

If I can find a 1/18" s&m cheap, I'd seriously think about using it instead of my wtp frame

Just get a new S&M frame... 

[lk_97]

I would, but I'm not good enough to warrant spending 300+ on a frame, I was gonna get a sunday 3rd wave for christmas, but it went out of stock on source, and every where else, so im gonna get a mac

[SaMAlex]

That ain't a mk1, its a mk3

[SaMAlex]

The rear stays on mk1s were thinner   

[Betty]

Are you sure Alex?

I don't doubt your knowledge but look at the brake and chainstay plates, they look the same as a mk1, and the serial number HXL 2227

I know they're not date relevant but read somewhere (bmx museum i think) that when they started the HXL/SMD format they started from 2000 upward with the numbers that would make that an early one?

Mk3's had welds on the inside of the dropouts?

Mk1's didn't?

I sound a right geek.... 

[Betty]

I would, but I'm not good enough to warrant spending 300+ on a frame, I was gonna get a sunday 3rd wave for christmas, but it went out of stock on source, and every where else, so im gonna get a mac

What frames a mac?....  

[SaMAlex]

look at the brake and chainstay plates, they look the same as a mk1
Having a plate on the top and bottom is how some of the Mk1's were, but it changed all the time. My mk1 dirtbike has tubes top and bottom (GT made I think).

and the serial number HXL 2227. that would make that an early one?
My mk1 Holmes is 2032. My mk2 is 2963 and my mk3s 4017. I agree, that does sounds a bit low for a mk3  

Mk3's had welds on the inside of the dropouts? Mk1's didn't?
Nope, non of them were welded on the inside.

The main difference between mk1 and mk3 Holmes frames are the size of the OD of the seat and chain stays. The Mk1s were thinner and the stays didnt touch at the seatclamp area. With the thicker stays, they overlapped.]

I have some more pics of mk1 & mk3 Holmes frames but I wont be able to get to them till Monday. I'll try to post some up then 

[lk_97]

I would, but I'm not good enough to warrant spending 300+ on a frame, I was gonna get a sunday 3rd wave for christmas, but it went out of stock on source, and every where else, so im gonna get a mac

What frames a mac?....  

  I meant the computer, I should have made that clearer

[Betty]

look at the brake and chainstay plates, they look the same as a mk1
Having a plate on the top and bottom is how some of the Mk1's were, but it changed all the time. My mk1 dirtbike has tubes top and bottom (GT made I think).

and the serial number HXL 2227. that would make that an early one?
My mk1 Holmes is 2032. My mk2 is 2963 and my mk3s 4017. I agree, that does sounds a bit low for a mk3  

Mk3's had welds on the inside of the dropouts? Mk1's didn't?
Nope, non of them were welded on the inside.

The main difference between mk1 and mk3 Holmes frames are the size of the OD of the seat and chain stays. The Mk1s were thinner and the stays didnt touch at the seatclamp area. With the thicker stays, they overlapped.]

I have some more pics of mk1 & mk3 Holmes frames but I wont be able to get to them till Monday. I'll try to post some up then 

My mk 3 had welds on the insides of the rear dropouts....



My mk2 doesn't....



The mk1's i've seen have grooves machined in the brake/chainstay plates mk2/mk3's don't...



I do know what you mean about the seatstay/seat tube junction, maybe they varied depending on where they were made?

If they were made by different manufacturers?

I still think it's a mk1... 

 

[Betty]

I would, but I'm not good enough to warrant spending 300+ on a frame, I was gonna get a sunday 3rd wave for christmas, but it went out of stock on source, and every where else, so im gonna get a mac

What frames a mac?....  

  I meant the computer, I should have made that clearer

I knew what you meant... 

[Betty]

And a mk3 wouldn't have douple dropouts?

I'll shut up now... 

[Dark Diggler]

Captain Anal  Mark, my Mk3 has welds on the inside of the dropouts 

[kev-s]

been watching this frame for ages and originally posted the link on here

my mk3 has welds on both sides of the dropouts, 1 peice dropouts, serial no hxl6290, chainstay connecting tube and setstay connecting plate

the ebay frame has orignally no brake mounts, iirc mk3 decals,2 peice drop a low serial no, mk1 seat and chainstay plates but has mk3 rear triangle tubes

im wondering when s&m decided to no longer carry on with the mk2 and to beef up the rear triangle on the mk3  that s&m & cook bros frame builders had a load of mk1 & 2 dropouts and seat/chainstay plates left over (maybe these were produced by a outside company hence why they had spares) and they didnt want to just bin them so they used them on the real early mk3 frames till they ran out and then started using the 1 peice drops and welding both sides etc....

[Betty]

Kev that mk3 i had is HXL 6306, not far off yours...  

R Al owns it now

Someone should start a thread of serial numbers... 

[SaMAlex]

Someone should start a thread of serial numbers... 

Already have, started it a few years ago. I'll post in on Monday

[Dark Diggler]

HXL3652

[SaMAlex]

This is a strange frame, for sure. The frame number, dropouts and stay braces suggest its an early frame, but the back end tubes are mk3, and even the headtube looks more like a mk3 frame than a mk1. Maybe the dropouts were leftover ones and put onto a newer frame (i think they started welding the inside of the dropouts when they changed the 2-stuck-together dropouts for one thick one), but its got the older brace plates as well.

Id guess that its a very late mk1, or an early mk3 .... or a custom built frame 

[stuntmaster]

This is a strange frame, for sure. The frame number, dropouts and stay braces suggest its an early frame, but the back end tubes are mk3, and even the headtube looks more like a mk3 frame than a mk1. Maybe the dropouts were leftover ones and put onto a newer frame (i think they started welding the inside of the dropouts when they changed the 2-stuck-together dropouts for one thick one), but its got the older brace plates as well.

Id guess that its a very late mk1, or an early mk3 .... or a custom built frame 

those dropouts on early one were a nightmare as they used to split apart .why did they do that design instead on a normal dropout

[SaMAlex]

those dropouts on early one were a nightmare as they used to split apart .why did they do that design instead on a normal dropout

At that time S&M were tiny and had now power (influential or buying power). When they went to a frame makers and said they wanted thicker dropouts they got told it couldn't be done (without massive cost) so they went for the next best thing and doubled up "normal" dropouts. It took S&M a while to do it properly.

When Standard came along they really did make everyone look again at how frames should be made, but they were also about double the cost of other frames at the time.